In this episode, Dr. Jill sits down with esteemed neurologist, Dr. Raymond Singer, to discuss an important topic that affects us all – protecting our brains from neurotoxins.
Our brains play a critical role in our everyday lives, influencing our memory, concentration, reaction time, sleep, thinking, and even language abilities. However, due to various factors such as environmental pollutants, certain medications, and even everyday household products, our brains can be exposed to neurotoxins that can negatively impact their functions.
Key Points
- Neurotoxicity is a cause of brain damage. Common symptoms can include problems with memory, concentration, reaction time, sleep, thinking, language, as well as depression, confusion, personality changes, fatigue, and numbness of the hands and feet. Many types of nervous system disorders could be caused by neurotoxicity, including numerous neurologic and psychiatric disorders.
- Applied neurotoxicology is a cross disciplinary study, requiring training, education, or experience in both toxicology and neuropsychology. An understanding of applied neurotoxicology is necessary for the correct diagnosis and treatment of neurotoxicity.
Our Guest – Dr. Raymond Singer
Dr. Raymond Singer is a board-certified forensic neuropsychologist, specializing in neurotoxicology. He has testified in several groundbreaking litigation cases, expanding the rights of people to get compensation for neuropsychological injuries from neurotoxic chemicals. He served as an expert witness in the landmark agentWitness in the landmark Agent Orange Vietnam Veterans Litigation, which resulted in the largest settlement at that time for toxic chemical injuries. He recently was featured in an opinion by the United States Supreme Court.
👍🏼 Dr. Raymond Singer's Website: https://neurotox.com/
📚 Dr. Raymond Singer's Neurotoxicity Guidebook: https://www.amazon.com/Neurotoxicity-Guidebook-Raymond-Singer/dp/1593302703
Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD
Dr. Jill Carnahan is Your Functional Medicine Expert® dually board certified in Family Medicine for ten years and in Integrative Holistic Medicine since 2015. She is the Medical Director of Flatiron Functional Medicine, a widely sought-after practice with a broad range of clinical services including functional medical protocols, nutritional consultations, chiropractic therapy, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, and massage therapy.
As a survivor of breast cancer, Crohn’s disease, and toxic mold illness she brings a unique perspective to treating patients in the midst of complex and chronic illness. Her clinic specializes in searching for the underlying triggers that contribute to illness through cutting-edge lab testing and tailoring the intervention to specific needs.
A popular inspirational speaker and prolific writer, she shares her knowledge of hope, health, and healing live on stage and through newsletters, articles, books, and social media posts! People relate to Dr. Jill’s science-backed opinions delivered with authenticity, love and humor. She is known for inspiring her audience to thrive even in the midst of difficulties.
Featured in Shape Magazine, Parade, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, First for Women, Townsend Newsletter, and The Huffington Post as well as seen on NBC News and Health segments with Joan Lunden, Dr. Jill is a media must-have. Her YouTube channel and podcast features live interviews with the healthcare world’s most respected names.
The Podcast
The Video
The Transcript
194: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Protecting Your Brain from Neurotoxins with Dr. Raymond Singer
00:01
Dr. Jill: When I really knew something was wrong was when I started having trouble walking up the stairs. I was supposed to be grateful and happy and healing and well and thriving, but I did not feel that way. I was so sick. Like always, I wanted to find an answer, and I had to figure it out. And I had to figure it out to save my own life. So I dove in.
00:30
James Maskell: Jill is the leading voice in biotoxin illness and chronic conditions that are driven by toxicity.
00:35
Bree Argetsinger: Oh my gosh, you're dealing with mold? You have to work with Dr. Jill Carnahan.
00:40
Patient 1: Dr. Jill is the first person that actually began to shed some light on the problem.
00:45
Dr. Jill: What I do is listen to the patient, and we together talk about what else is possible.
00:54
Patient 2: I don't know why I'm crying.
00:59
Patient 3: She saved my life.
01:03
Dr. Jill: The deepest lessons and most profound insights come in the suffering, come in the dark moments. Self-compassion is the healing transition that shifts something inside of us. It's actually the thing that we need most in order to heal.
01:27
Narrator: Doctor/Patient—available now at DoctorPatientMovie.com.
Dr. Jill 01:49
Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for the most cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Jill. In each episode, we delve deep into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators at the forefront of medical research, empowering you with knowledge and inspiration on your journey to health.
Dr. Jill 02:13
Today, I am absolutely excited to introduce you to my guest, Dr. Raymond Singer, a board-certified forensic neuropsychologist specializing in neurotoxicology. He testified in several groundbreaking litigation cases, expanding the rights of people to get compensation for neuropsychological injuries from neurotoxic chemicals. He served as an expert witness in the landmark Agent Orange Vietnam Veterans Litigation, which resulted in the largest settlement at that time for toxic chemical injuries. He was recently featured in an opinion by the United States Supreme Court. Dr. Singer, welcome so much! We're excited to have you here.
Dr. Raymond Singer 02:58
Thank you. I'm glad to be here!
Dr. Jill 03:00
Yes. We've got a lot to talk about. Before we dive into neurotoxicology and forensics, tell us a little bit about: How did you get into this area of medicine and testifying for clients? How did you get into this pathway?
Dr. Raymond Singer 03:17
It goes back a long way. When I was a graduate student at Washington State University, I was watching TV one day—actually, it was a black and white TV—and I saw an image of Dr. Irving Selikoff at the top of the Annenberg Building in New York City talking about his work in environmental toxicology. I was so inspired by his words, his actions, his demeanor, and the work that he was doing. It didn't go beyond that at the moment. Until years later, when I was in New York City, I was asked by my sister's—who's a psychologist—friend, who was pregnant and working for Dr. Selikoff, to substitute for her on a trip to Michigan State to conduct research on neurotoxicology. At that moment, I was a postdoctoral fellow at New York University, but I managed to get a couple of weeks off to join the team. We went to Michigan State. I can tell you about the research we did there.
Dr. Raymond Singer 04:38
This was under the direction of Irving Selikoff, the man who brought asbestos to the world's attention. He was, I believe, the premier public health doctor of his day. He brought me into the program. There is where I learned neuropsychology, neurotoxicology, epidemiology, and some more statistics. I was inspired to go out and apply the knowledge that we learned there.
Dr. Raymond Singer 05:19
We went to various places around the country to examine workers exposed to solvents—lead, mercury, pesticides, and Agent Orange. It was my work doing nerve conduction velocity assessments of Agent Orange workers that later led to my being hired on the Agent Orange litigation—because the work I did was, I guess, groundbreaking, showing the neurotoxicity of Agent Orange.
Dr. Jill 05:56
Yes. This is so needed. That's why I'm so excited to be here with you today. Here I am, a medical doctor in clinical practice, and every single day, one of my areas of expertise is how the environmental toxic load and the toxicants and toxins in our environment affect our bodies. And it's something that, sadly, most medical professionals are very unaware of. To me, it's the elephant in the room of all of our immune dysfunction, our brain dysfunction, and our rising rates of Alzheimer's disease. Again, you're going to talk a lot about this.
Dr. Jill 06:27
I'd love to frame this with a quote from your website, which is full of resources, Neurotox.com. It says at the very top: “Neurotoxicity is a cause of brain damage. Common symptoms can include problems with memory, concentration, reaction time, sleep, thinking, language, as well as depression, confusion, personality changes, fatigue, numbness of the hands and feet,” and many, many more things. “Many nervous system disorders could be caused by neurotoxicity, including numerous neurologic and psychological disorders.” You and I know this, but for those listening, what percentage of people who are experiencing neurological or psychological symptoms or ones like that do you think could potentially have a toxin at the core?
Dr. Raymond Singer 07:18
It can be very large. In part because, as you know and as your listeners might know, the brain itself doesn't have pain receptors. The covering does—the dura. But the brain itself doesn't have pain receptors. When people are injured by a toxic substance, they won't necessarily feel the pain. Headaches can result from inflammation and so forth—inflammation of the blood vessels and the dura—but it may not be an initial symptom. So, unfortunately, we can suffer from neurotoxicity and not be aware of it. The big problem with lead that we've had in our society—lead paint and lead in gasoline—is people getting injured. It's pretty subtle because the brain injuries are also relatively cumulative. Once you get an injury, it's difficult to recover. Some doctors are well-versed in how to bring about that recovery but most doctors are not.
Dr. Raymond Singer 08:45
The accumulation of a brain injury and possibly the synergistic effect of different chemicals that we might be exposed to—for example, lead in the environment, mold, or pesticides in the food supply—is why I encourage everyone to eat organic produce. Pesticide residues remain in foodstuffs [and there is] the GMO aspect of the food supply. And the Roundup that's put onto the GMOs gets into the food supply.
Dr. Raymond Singer 09:33
This unfortunately leads to an assault on us and the brain—a variety of toxic chemicals that our body has to deal with and manage. If it's a small amount, our detoxification systems will work fine, and we'll be able to detoxify. But if it's a larger amount, then it's taxing, and we may suffer from silent brain damage that can result in all the symptoms that you mentioned. The brain controls all behavior. It controls the nervous system. It controls the heart rate. It controls digestion, sleep, personality, memory, energy levels, and on and on and on.
Dr. Raymond Singer 10:33
One of the interesting but unfortunate things from a neurotoxicological point of view is that any part of the brain can be affected by toxic substances. Any function of the brain can be injured by toxic substances. Sometimes it could result in strange types of behaviors and strange types of problems. But more commonly, there are problems with short-term memory, learning, reaction time, and psychomotor speed. Long-term memory tends to remain but more recent memories start to fade and new memories for many people can't even be formed.
Dr. Raymond Singer 11:28
Another untalked-about aspect of neurotoxicity is its pervasive effect on personality. This is rarely studied in neuropsychology or neurotoxicology. But in my years of working with people with chemical exposures—I guess probably in the thousands—and administering personality tests to many of them, I can tell you that personality is often affected and often damaged by the exposures. It could be secondary to the loss of function or it could be a primary effect on the brain areas that control personality, which must be pretty widespread.
Did you want to ask a question or should I keep going?
Dr. Jill 12:20
Oh gosh, I love this! A couple of thoughts, and then I want you to keep going. The first thing is, I just want to reiterate that toxic load is the concept that you're talking about that I've talked about a lot too. We're born in this world. Twenty years ago, the cord blood of infants had over 200 chemicals, [coming] from a Canadian study. So we often come into the world with a toxic load. Like you said, I think it's really important to understand that sometimes we can tell, but many times we are inhaling, ingesting, or getting exposed to these chemicals through the skin or the air and don't even know it.
Dr. Jill 12:53
One concept that I wanted to highlight was insight. I've seen this with mold. Insight is the ability, in real time, to understand what's happening. Many times, with chemical exposures and, in my experience, with mold, you lack insight. It almost sabotages your ability to know, in real time, what's happening. You might look back later and say: “Oh, that was so strange”—that behavior or that lack of memory. You may put it together in hindsight, but in real time, we often don't realize how much it's affecting us. Is that true?
Dr. Raymond Singer 13:22
That's absolutely true. And many of my clients think that they're going into Alzheimer's disease because of what they're experiencing. Actually, the symptoms of neurotoxicity are very similar to [those of] Alzheimer's disease. You could almost say [they are] indistinguishable. Alzheimer's disease is a diagnosis that people get when they have certain symptoms. But the cause of Alzheimer's disease is probably not plaques.
Dr. Jill 14:00
Correct.
Dr. Raymond Singer 14:03
It's interesting that we have similar viewpoints on this.
Dr. Jill 14:05
Yes. Dr. Bredesen, who's a teacher on how to reverse Alzheimer's and is looking at all the underlying causes, will say that one in three of his young people—I'm talking young, 40s, 50s, early 60s—with Alzheimer's are related to mold toxicity. Maybe that's a good transition because we both love to talk about mold. What are maybe some of the interesting cases or things you've seen related to the mycotoxins that mold produces and how it affects the brain, the personality, and some of these things?
Dr. Raymond Singer 14:33
I've seen a lot of mold clients. I started studying mold neurotoxicity in 1999 when a professional nursing organization asked me to give a talk on it. I said, “I don't know anything about it.” They said: “Well, find out about it and come and talk to us about it.” So I did that. And I've testified in many mold cases over the years.
Dr. Raymond Singer 15:02
Two mold cases come to mind. One was of a family exposed to mold in a region where there was an unusual amount of rainfall and an unusual infestation of mold in their home over a period of time. The little girl in the family developed an autistic-like condition and was quite destructive—self-destructive and threatening her parents with violence. She was just a little girl. She couldn't perpetuate violence. But it modified her personality and emotions, as well as her ability to think. She suffered from that.
Dr. Raymond Singer 16:04
Another mold case that I worked on included other toxic chemicals. But this was a criminal case. A man lived in a moist part of the country in a trailer that was very moldy—visible mold in the trailer. Eventually, he lost his mind. He went out and—I hate to bring up bad things—he shot and killed a bunch of people, including a law enforcement officer who was a friend of his. He said he was cleansing the land for Hispanic people. He was part Hispanic. He got these delusions into his mind that were partly induced by the mold.
Dr. Raymond Singer 17:15
My colleague at the time took samples. We think that there may have been a variation of LSD in the walls and on the pillows from the various mold mycotoxins that were emitted. But I'll talk a little bit more about the case and then we can go on to something else. He was set for the death penalty. We were able to show the court that there were mitigating circumstances that caused him to go insane and commit these horrible, tragic crimes. But we were able to show the court that neurotoxicity, including mold, can alter the brain—the structure and function of the brain—and lead to permanent changes that can alter a person's ability to control their impulses, judge, and manage their behavior.
Dr. Raymond Singer 18:33
In this case, he was spared the death penalty and put into a beautiful psychiatric facility where I had examined him in the state. A very nice facility. But unfortunately, he was still mentally ill. And he got a girlfriend to try and have him break out of jail. The last I heard, he was put in state prison.
Dr. Jill (pre-recording) 19:07
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Dr. Raymond Singer 20:03
And he's probably going to be there for a while.
Dr. Jill 20:06
I've often wondered because some of the most affected water-damaged buildings are civic, like courthouses, prisons, and schools. You and I know how much this can affect the brain. I have several school systems where I work with kids and we know there's water damage. I can document that their learning and IQ have gone down in certain situations.
Dr. Jill 20:27
There's another story I have. I've mentioned this on air before, but I have a friend who had a house that was massively affected by Stackybotrys, which produces some really bad trichothecene toxins. They didn't know this, but later they looked into it: [With] the previous owners, several times back, there were two homicides and a suicide in that home. I have no doubt that it's connected to those mycotoxins because it really does change brain function.
Dr. Jill 20:53
These cases are fascinating. I get it, and it's so real. And I love that you're bringing awareness. Especially my patients sometimes feel like: “What is wrong with me? I can't think clearly.” Or a lot of times, I'll see relationships or marriages break up because of personality changes. You and I both know this affects people so profoundly.
Dr. Raymond Singer 21:15
Yes. I would say that very often families break up over—sometimes over mold—neurotoxicity in general. But I've seen a lot of family problems. Even if they realize what's causing it, the changes in personality and behavior are so profound that the spouse sometimes just can't take it anymore.
Dr. Jill 21:46
Yes. I could talk about mold all day long. And we both know there are profound effects. One thing I thought too, when you were saying that, was the Salem witch trials. They think, now in hindsight, that there were some mycotoxins in the grains that affected them, like LSD, which makes sense of that test that you mentioned. Did you come across some of that data from those…
Dr. Raymond Singer 22:05
Yes. That's what I thought about in this case, where they found LSD-like substances. Unfortunately, my colleague, who was the premier expert in mold, Jack Thrasher… I don't know if you know him.
Dr. Jill 22:21
Yes, I do.
Dr. Raymond Singer 22:22
Okay. He passed away. It's a tremendous loss. And also, Kaye Kilburn, another leader in the field. He passed away. Unfortunately, the leaders passed away. Another occupational hazard is that they lose their licenses to practice medicine for diagnosing mold toxicity.
Dr. Jill 22:47
Yes. Fortunately, I think things are shifting a little. It's really crazy because, for those listening, in medical school, we're taught that it's an allergen. That is true. But what we're talking about is this whole inflammatory, innate immune system dysfunction. It massively affects cognition, the brain, immune function, and so many other levels. It's not just an allergen.
Dr. Raymond Singer 23:09
Right. Okay, I'll get back to it. I've been thinking about this—about multiple chemical sensitivity. I've also worked in many of those cases.
Dr. Jill 23:26
What are some of the other common things you see as toxicants or toxin exposures in some of the cases? I'm sure there are solvents, metals, and chemicals like pesticides, like we talked about. Do you want to share some of the different kinds of cases that you've come across that have affected people very dramatically and that maybe our listeners wouldn't be aware of?
Dr. Raymond Singer 23:46
Yes. Pesticides—you do have to watch out for those. I am currently working on a case of people with pesticide exposure from exterminators who misapplied pesticides in their homes. There is another hidden toxic substance I wanted to talk about that can affect modern homes. Beware if you have foam insulation to insulate your walls in your home. If it's misapplied, it can continue to outgas into the home environment and put out methylene diisocyanate. Flame-retardant forever chemicals can also be emitted from these substances.
Dr. Raymond Singer 24:53
I'm working on a case where a whole family was affected by this. It was a family that built their dream house on 100 acres of land. It had everything in it, and they wanted it to be really well insulated. Unfortunately, the people applying the substances applied them too thickly and it consequently took a long time to outgas. It had to outgas a lot. So that's one thing to be aware of in home insulation.
Dr. Jill 25:41
Have you had cases with other materials in the home, like formaldehyde, off-gassing of things on cabinets or flooring, or maybe flame retardants? We want the home to be this wonderful, safe place. But what ends up happening is that if there's water damage or new materials that we're not aware of, sometimes the home can be the problem because it's off-gassing or contributing to the toxic air quality inside.
Dr. Raymond Singer 26:09
Yes. For sure. Formaldehyde is less of a problem these days. I think it's because we raised such a fuss about it when it was first so widely used a couple of decades ago. We participated in litigation against the formaldehyde uses and companies. And now there seems to be much less of it used in products. But I would be careful in mobile homes—I'm not sure—because that's a pretty closed environment.
Dr. Jill 25:50
We mentioned before we got on here that sometimes psychiatric drugs can have effects. I know I've seen cases. I'm sure Ambien is one that you've seen do some strange things and maybe the SSRIs. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how these drugs may have unintended effects and how you might have seen that play out in the courtroom?
Dr. Raymond Singer 27:10
Yes. Sure, okay. Psychiatric drugs—read the labels very carefully, because a lot of times you could find warnings on the labels of what could possibly happen. For the drug companies, it's good to put them on the labels so people can know that. Many of these psychiatric drugs that are designed to improve mental health have been linked with violence, aggression, hostility, and reports of homicide. If you look… I forget what the acronym stands for.
Dr. Jill 27:50
Reportable injuries from meds.
Dr. Raymond Singer 27:51
Yes. If you look on the reports, which I did… I've been involved in several criminal cases where people committed murder. I was able to link that to the psychiatric drugs that they were taking. The typical scenario goes like this: A person is not feeling well. They have some depression or—whatever the problem is—anxiety. They go to their doctor. Typically, it's a GP, a general practitioner, and maybe not a psychiatrist. They have prescribed the drug.
Dr. Raymond Singer 28:41
They come back to the doctor [after] a little while, and they say: “I'm feeling worse with this drug. What can you do?” Then they may double the dosage or more. They may add another drug. Then the person who's taking the drugs is taking way too many drugs that are causing mental disturbances. Then the practitioner may suddenly take one of the drugs away, which leads to withdrawal symptoms—the abrupt withdrawal syndrome from the abrupt withdrawal—and then maybe add another drug. Anyway, this goes on.
Dr. Raymond Singer 29:34
Unfortunately, sometimes it's a spouse who could become the victim of a person who develops a psychotic break, goes into a rage, and commits murder. I've worked on these cases. Another interesting aspect of the case is that even when we can demonstrate that the person had diminished responsibility for what they did, the person still has remorse. They did it. They know they did it. And maybe a drug impaired their ability. But here they did it, and then they suffer the terrible loss of someone that they loved and still love. It's a terrible tragedy all around.
Dr. Raymond Singer 30:39
I just encourage people: If you're taking psychiatric drugs and have adverse or worsening effects, talk to your doctor and tell them that you're not feeling well. Ask the doctor to consider whether it's an adverse effect of the drug. Don't stop taking drugs without a doctor's supervision, because that itself can have an adverse effect.
Dr. Jill 31:07
Yes, you're right. These things are very, very powerful. And I couldn't agree more. As physicians, we need to monitor if our patient is taking them. I'm a general practitioner and I know my limits. So in some cases like those, I would make sure a psychiatrist or an expert is involved. And that's another thing you could do as a patient if you're out there and concerned about your medications—you could see an expert in that area to make sure that you have good, proper supervision. So I really like that you mentioned that.
Dr. Jill 31:44
Agent Orange and some of those things—I want to talk a little bit about that. But there are these cases, like some of the trains that exploded—the chemicals in the environment. Have you been involved in any of these places where there are a lot of people in an area affected by a certain chemical?
Dr. Raymond Singer 32:05
Not that many of that. Typically, I'm hired now by a lawyer who represents an individual with a problem. One of the problems, just generally speaking, with class action litigation is that often the individual gets lost in the shuffle. Maybe the group gets money and the lawyer gets lots of money and they settle the case. That's great for them. But the individual may not get the compensation that they want or need.
Dr. Raymond Singer 32:50
I did want to talk about another general topic, which I would call the neurotoxicity of warfare. That's a huge source of neurotoxicity in our society. And just to review the Agent Orange litigation—some of your listeners may not be as old as I am and may not remember what went on—Agent Orange is an herbicide that was used to defoliate the forest so that the American pilots and bombers could see the Vietnamese adversaries, the Viet Cong, as they traversed the Ho Chi Minh trail and other places. They would use tremendous amounts of these herbicides to defoliate the forest. The land is still contaminated with dioxin from these efforts. And, of course, the Vietnamese were affected by Agent Orange.
Dr. Raymond Singer 34:01
Dioxin is a contaminant of Agent Orange from 2,4,5-T to a large extent. It wasn't meant to be there but it got there. Dioxin at the time was considered and maybe still is one of the most toxic substances known to man. I feel sorry for the Vietnamese who have been exposed to it. But also our servicemen and women who were there were exposed to Agent Orange handling it, loading up the devices to spray it, and during the spray of it.
Dr. Raymond Singer 34:43
The manufacturer didn't tell people that it could be neurotoxic. There are some studies that show it in rats and so forth. They knew or should have known that it was neurotoxic when they were giving it such a widespread application. So that's how the Vietnam veterans were able to sue the chemical companies for this problem. The servicemen were unable to sue the federal government for negligence, even though the government was negligent in using this product.
Dr. Raymond Singer 35:26
But that's just one of the substances. And then there was the Gulf War syndrome that took place. That was a variety of substances, including the burning of waste material. They would put their garbage into these big pits and burn it.
Dr. Jill 35:47
And would that include chemical garbage, excess stuff that got burned, and plastics?
Dr. Raymond Singer 35:50
Yes, anything. Anything would go into it. In fact, President Biden refers to his son, Beau Biden, as being injured by war in the Gulf War. He's been criticized: “Well, his son was not shot.” But his son was exposed to these chemical toxins, developed brain cancer, and unfortunately passed away. So, President Biden was correct in that analysis, in my opinion.
Dr. Raymond Singer 36:33
Other sources of neurotoxicity from war include the shells that are used to fire against tanks to penetrate tank walls. These shells can be made with hardened uranium from the refuse from nuclear power plants. They take the waste and use it to harden the metal for these shells. Then shells explode and leave the radioactive material all around there, contaminating the soldiers and anyone who comes upon it later.
Dr. Raymond Singer 37:26
In addition to that, I've worked with veterans from Camp Lejeune and other bases where there was a contaminated water supply. The federal government is not subject to OSHA—the Occupational Safety and Health Administration—laws. So they can pollute with abandon. And unfortunately, the federal government has done that in the past—contaminating the water supply for the service workers. I've worked on a number of those cases and helped those veterans get their compensation. Now, though, the government has opened up the compensation window. So now many are able to get competition for these injuries.
Dr. Jill 38:27
What kinds of things were in the water supply? Was it multiple chemicals?
Dr. Raymond Singer 38:32
Solvents—tetrachloroethylene or trichloroethylene. That was, I guess, used for degreasing aircraft or armaments. I think that was the main contaminant in the water supply.
Dr. Raymond Singer 38:55
Just to round out the cases, I've worked on the case of a veteran who was tasked with cleaning out the fuel tanks of jet planes. The government did not give him adequate respiratory equipment. He would go into these chambers, come out and pass out, and get high from it frequently. This went on for a long time until one day he had some dental work done and was given, I guess, opiates to relieve his pain. But between the opiates and the neurotoxicity that he had suffered from the years of exposure in the gas tanks to gasoline fumes and degreasers, he, unfortunately, got involved in a homicide. He didn't mean to. It was a very unfortunate event. But he was in that homicide.
Dr. Raymond Singer 40:30
He was represented by Laura Udall. Laura Udall is a famous name in Colorado and Arizona because she's from the Stuart Udall family. We've had Senator Udall from New Mexico and from Colorado. Anyway, Laura Udall. Luckily, he was represented by Laura Udall. She brought me into the case. I'm going to spare you the horror of the case. It was a horrible case involving… I'm not going to tell you. But we managed to educate the jury that there were mitigating circumstances to this man's behavior. They did spare him the death penalty. He was not going to get a “not guilty by reason of insanity.” Although, I have had such a case. I don't know if you want me to talk about that case.
Dr. Jill 41:29
Sure.
Dr. Raymond Singer 41:32
I've had a couple of cases of neurotoxicity where the verdict was not guilty by reason of temporary insanity. One was a murder case; one was an attempted murder case. The murder case involved a man with exposure to pesticides. It was a complicated case. He was poisoned by pesticides in a very unusual way and became psychotic and delusional. It was completely out of character. He hadn't had it before the exposures. Afterward, as I was saying, he was acquitted. He was judged temporarily insane. He spent many years in a psychiatric hospital. He recently contacted me. He's out of the hospital and trying to resume his life now. It was horrible because it killed a family member.
Dr. Jill 42:42
Oh, wow. It just goes to show. I think the moral here is that these chemicals in our environment have such a profound effect on our health. In the case of what you witnessed, they have a profound effect on personality, mental acuity, cognition, and even memory. I bet there are some cases where many of these people under a certain influence of chemicals can hardly remember what they even did. So it's really profound. And like I said, I think our awareness around it is important because, as medical doctors, we want to help patients clear this from their system and get out of exposures.
Dr. Jill 43:23
At the beginning, you talked about breathing clean air. I always say clean air, clean water, clean food. It's up to us to make sure. Our government isn't going to protect us, unfortunately. They just don't have the bandwidth and are not checking chemicals in synergy. And they're not really doing due diligence on a lot of these things that are being put into the environment, as I'm sure you can tell. So it's up to us. It's up to us. If you were to talk to our listeners, whether they're patients or people who are living in this environment, what would be your big takeaway for everyone listening?
Dr. Raymond Singer 44:07
I would say a couple of things. One is that it takes a while for the medical establishment to understand the effects of toxic substances. When I started out in my practice, there were exceedingly few doctors who had any knowledge of this or any willingness to study it. And nowadays, there are doctors like you and a handful of others who do have this understanding. So if a listener thinks that they have a toxic chemical problem and is seeking out medical help, I do urge them to seek out doctors who specialize in this area. Otherwise, you're going to get blank stares because the medical doctors don't know. They don't understand. They're not really paid, in a sense, to understand this. Well, I don't know. Let's put that aside.
Dr. Jill 45:09
The training. And I'm 20 years out.
Dr. Raymond Singer 45:11
The training, yes.
Dr. Jill 45:12
There's no training. There really isn't.
Dr. Raymond Singer 45:15
When I was at Mount Sinai School of Medicine, what I learned was that the average medical doctor had four hours of training in environmental or occupational medicine. I hope it's changed since then.
Dr. Jill 45:28
Yes. Maybe a little more. Maybe 8 or 12, but not much more. And everything that I've learned about this kind of medicine has been mostly postgraduate. So it is true. You have to really understand. Part of my passion of being here with you is educating. We have a lot of practitioners who listen, too. The more doctors who can get curious and start to say, “Well, what if…” Even if they don't know everything about it, if they can just see a patient's symptoms…
Dr. Jill 45:55
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but history is everything. If I say, “At this point…”—either in a new environment, a new house, or a new exposure—and that changed a behavior or symptom dramatically from that time forward, that could be involved. So if you take a great history, you can often tell if there's an environmental exposure that could be at the root.
Dr. Raymond Singer 46:16
Yes. In fact, as my practice in neurotoxicology has evolved over the years, I rely more and more on history and the details. If someone is in litigation and comes to see me, they spend a day and a half or two days in my office with me and my staff getting tested and talking about: What exactly happened? What are the symptoms you have? When did they start? What are they like? I find that that gives me more information than the tests sometimes.
Dr. Jill 46:54
I could not agree more. I am a mold expert, so I diagnose a lot of mold toxicity. I would say 100% of the time, in the history, I usually know the diagnosis. That's not science-based. Well, our intuition may be a little bit. But I actually prove it with the test. So I go back and make sure that we're really dealing with that. But my staff jokes about my percentage of accuracy being almost 100%. When you're really listening to the patient and you put it together, you can usually have a pretty good idea of what is causing or contributing to their illness before you even prove it with the testing. And I'm sure you do the same just [by] listening.
Dr. Raymond Singer 47:32
I totally agree.
Dr. Jill 47:35
Amazing. I am so grateful for you, your time, and your work in the world. I'm assuming people can find you at your website, Neurotox.com. We'll leave that link. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience or anywhere else where they can find you or get more information?
Dr. Raymond Singer 47:55
They could pick up my book, Neurotoxicity Guidebook, which is available on Amazon. I wrote this book at the beginning of my career. But when I look back and read it, it still rings true.
Dr. Jill 48:10
These things do. So Neurotoxicity Guidebook—we will link to that. I'm going to get myself a copy. So, thank you. Thank you again for the work you do in the world, because this is hard work. And from the experience you've shared with us, these are not easy cases. You've dealt with some really tough subjects, but I'm grateful there are people out there like you doing this work.
Dr. Raymond Singer 48:34
And I'm grateful for you, who's doing the work of treating all these patients who have nowhere else to go, really, and who find help with your services.
Dr. Jill 48:47
Thank you. Please go out and buy a copy of Dr. Singer's book. We'll link to that. And thanks again for being on the show.
Dr. Raymond Singer 48:55
You're welcome.
Dr. Jill 48:56
Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of Resiliency Radio. I hope you enjoyed the interview with Dr. Singer as much as I did. Stay tuned for future episodes. We release a new episode every week. You can watch us on YouTube. You can listen on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please do stop by; leave a review. It helps us reach more people. Join us again next week for another guest. If you want more information, transcripts, or downloads, you can go to JillCarnahan.com. For products and services, go to DrJillHealth.com. And I hope to see you again next week!
![204: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Can our Minds Spontaneously Transform our Health? Bruce Lipton Dr. Jill 00:00 Hey guys, I am so excited to announce that the movie that you've been waiting for, the documentary Doctor/Patient, is now available for rent or purchase at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Check out the trailer here. 00:13 Dr. Jill: When I really knew something was wrong, was when I started having trouble walking up the stairs. I was supposed to be grateful and happy and healing and well and thriving, but I did not feel that way. I was so sick. Like always, I wanted to find an answer, and I had to figure it out. And I had to figure it out to save my own life. So I dove in. 00:38 James Maskell: Jill is the leading voice in biotoxin illness and chronic conditions that are driven by toxicity. 00:43 Bree Argetsinger: Oh my gosh, you're dealing with mold? You have to work with Dr. Jill Carnahan. 00:47 Patient 1: Dr. Jill is the first person that actually began to shed some light on the problem. 00:53 Dr. Jill: What I do is listen to the patient, and we together talk about what else is possible. 00:59 Patient 2: I don't know why I'm crying. 01:02 Patient 3: She saved my life. 01:06 Dr. Jill: The deepest lessons and most profound insights come in the suffering, come in the dark moments. Self-compassion is the healing transition that shifts something inside of us. It's actually the thing that we need most in order to heal. 01:26 Narrator: Doctor/Patient—available now at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Dr. Jill 01:36 Hey, welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Jill. In each episode, we dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research, empowering you with knowledge and wisdom to overcome illness in your journey to optimal health. Dr. Jill 02:02 Hey guys, if you don't already know, if you've been around me at all, you know my movie, Doctor/Patient is now out. You can view it, share it, gift it, or rent it at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Be sure to check it out and then I would love to hear your feedback after you've had a chance to watch it. Dr. Jill 02:19 Today, I am deeply honored to have guest Bruce Lipton here with me. He's a PhD, a cell biologist, a lecturer, and an internationally recognized leader in bridging science and spirit. We were just talking before we came on about how he has been a leader [for] decades before a lot of us in functional/integrative medicine came along. And I am so excited! If you're a doctor listening—and I know I have a lot of audience there—you are in for a treat. If you're a patient, you're also in for a treat. Stay tuned. Dr. Jill 02:47 Bruce was on the faculty of the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and later performed groundbreaking stem cell research at Stanford University. He's a best-selling author of The Biology of Belief—if you haven't read that book, it's a classic now—The Honeymoon Effect, and the co-author with Steve Bhaerman of Spontaneous Evolution. Bruce received his prestigious 2009 Goi Peace Award from Japan in honor of his scientific contribution to world harmony. Bruce, it is a true honor and delight to have you here! Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 03:17 Jill, I am a happy person to be here because this audience that I get a chance to talk to, to me, is a very important audience. These are the cultural creatives that are paving the way for the future that we need to get into very soon because we're facing an evolutionary upheaval at this very moment. Whether you watch the news, surf the web, or even look out your window, the whole planet has experienced chaos at every level of it. People are focusing on the little chaos, like focusing on the trees, without pulling back to see the biggest thing that's happening and nobody's saying the words. NASA—Let me just say NASA's words. NASA has recognized that within the next 20 years, civilization is facing—and this is my emphasis here—an irreversible collapse. The reason is so mathematically simple. Let me give the math. Dr. Jill 04:16 Sure. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 04:17 Science has recognized that to continue living just the way we're living—just say, let's every day live the way we're living today on this planet—it takes 1.6 planet Earths to provide the resources for today's civilization. The simple math is this: There's one Earth subtracted from 1.6, and we're recognizing: "Where the hell are we getting the extra points?" Dr. Jill 04:39 We're in a deficit. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 04:40 And that deficit is leading to the destruction of the web of life. We have to also recognize this: Even though the Bible is giving us some fanciful story that nature was created and then humans were added on top of nature—no, we evolved from nature. We are nature. If nature goes down, humans go down, because we are part of this web of life. Our separation in our consciousness [that causes us to believe] that we can dominate nature, I say, "How's that working?" I say, "We're facing an extinction." That's a biological reality at this moment. It's called a mass extinction. It happened five times in the history of this planet: Life was thriving, [then] mass extinction. It knocked it all out and then it started again. We are there because of our behavior. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 05:33 And I say, "Our behavior is based on our consciousness." I go: "Okay, wait a second. Is that New Age?" I go: "No, let's stop. No New Age here at this moment." [In] 1927—day one, quantum physics—Max Planck, the founding father of quantum physics, states: "The mind is the creator of our life experiences." Quantum physics—the most valid of all the sciences today in the sense of its predictions and accuracy. Quantum physics. And it's still the belief in quantum physics: Consciousness is controlling this. And I go: "So if consciousness is controlling this, then why are we in such a mess?" The answer is: We have been programmed, and the programming has disempowered us all. It has disempowered us as patients. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 06:28 I go: "I'll give you a program that disempowers you right now." I say, "What is it?" "It's called genetic determinism." That was what I was teaching in medical school: Genes control the character of life. I go: "Did we pick the genes as far as we know? No. But if we don't like the characters we have, can we change the genes? No, can't do that." And then let's just add a little tidbit: Genes turn on and off by themselves. And I say: "You put those together and what have you done? You have told the patients that their lives are not in their control, they're controlled by their heredity, and that they're victims of heredity. Which is victims of what? Genetics. And what does a person know about genetics? Nothing. Who does know something? The doctor. Aha! The program is: When it comes to health, people do not trust themselves." They say: "I need an expert opinion. I'm not knowledgeable." They accept the truth from somebody else. Dr. Jill 07:28 I so love the direction that you're going here because, as a physician, one of the most important things I can do is empower the patient and make sure that they don't think that I am the end-all-be-all. [I want them to know] that we are collaborating and that I listen to them, and I say: "How do you feel about this treatment plan? Where do you want to go?" Granted, if I have wisdom, I can give them that information, but they still get to make that decision. But so many patients are outsourcing that wisdom to someone. Or, at least paternalistically and historically, that has been the way. And what we need to do is take control of our own health. Dr. Jill 08:00 How many patients have gone through a loved one with breast cancer—I'm a breast cancer survivor, so I can speak on this—and they're told, "You have the BRCA gene and you need to have a bilateral mastectomy"? I'm going to be strong about this because I disagree. That's an action out of fear. To each his own, so if you've been out there and have done something based on your genetics, there's no judgment here. But what we're saying is that you actually have control over the expression of those genes. So why don't you go into epigenetics for those who don't know what that means and tell us a little primer on epigenetics and why we have more control than we think? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 08:34 Okay. The most important thing—and this is all scientific, so this is not any new age BS here, folks, this is science—I say: "What is it?" The belief that genes turn on and off is a completely false statement because a gene is a blueprint to make a protein. The proteins are the building blocks. Proteins wear out; you have to replace them. So you have to have a blueprint. It's called a gene. I go, "It's a blueprint!" I go, "Why is that relevant?" I say: "Go to an architect's office. She's working on a blueprint. You ask her, 'Hey, is your blueprint on or off?' She would look at you like, 'What are you talking about? There's no on and off to a blueprint.'" I go: "Aha! Aha! A gene is a blueprint. What you want to find out is: Who's the architect who reads the blueprint? The blueprint does not read itself. There's an architect." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 09:24 I saw this in my research in 1967. None of you were probably old enough to know what I'm talking about—1967! But I was cloning stem cells. Let's give the real name of a stem cell: An embryonic cell. It's an embryo's cell. It replaces things that are broken and gets a new one. I go: "So what? I clone the stem cell." I say, "What's that?" I say: "You put one stem cell in the culture dish. And then what? It divides every 10 or 12 hours." So first there's one, then there's 2, then there's 4, 8, and 16. A week later, [there are] 30,000 cells in the petri dish. What's the most important fact? They all came from one parent. I have 30,000 genetically identical cells. I split them into three petri dishes—one, two, three. Each dish has 10,000, 10,000, 10,000, all genetically the same. We grow cells in a culture medium. Ah, this is going to be the tricky part, for when you get this, the world changes. I'm going to come back to it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 10:27 I say: "A culture medium is what the cells grow in in the lab. And I make it up by putting the chemistry or culture medium. Since I'm creating it, I can change some of the constituents. So I make three different versions of culture medium, A, B, and C." So I say, "So what?" Each one represents a different environment because the cells live in a culture medium. So I say: "Okay, dish one, environment A—the cells form muscle. Dish two, environment B—the cells form bone. Dish three, environment C—the cells form fat cells." I'm doing this experiment. I'm teaching genetic determinism, and I'm watching the cells and going— Dr. Jill 11:10 Wait a second. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 11:11 —"Wait a second, who controlled the activity?" They were all genetically the same. What was different? The environment. The chemistry of the environment selected the genes. The genes did not select themselves. Then, all of a sudden, I said, "Why is this important?" It's a revolution! I'll tell you why. Genetic determinism: Victim. The new science, epigenetics, which I'll explain: Master. Why? Because you control the environment. It's the environment that controls the cells. It's called epigenetics. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 11:48 [There's a] simple reason why the name [is what it is]. What do we call skin? Epidermis. Why? What's under the skin? A layer called dermis. What's the skin above the dermis? Epidermis. Epi: Above. Epigenetics: Control above the genes. I go, "Whoa, the control is not in the genes." I said: "No, it's to control the environment that the genes live in." I go, "Well, wait, I control the environment." Aha! If you control the environment, then you control the genetics. And that's all of a sudden where the new science comes in. The genetic determinism: Victim. Epigenetics: Master. You control your genes. So basically, what I saw back in 1967 was, "The genes didn't make this decision." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 12:48 Now let's just jump ahead a second here because that's a basic science. And then I'm going to give you this, which you're totally aware of: You are a skin-covered petri dish. You have 50 trillion cells under your skin and you have the original culture medium. What is a culture medium? I didn't say it before, but I'll tell you where it is: A laboratory version of blood. When I grow human cells, I concoct a culture medium based on the constituents of human blood or mouse blood, depending on which cells I'm growing. What's the point? You are a skin-covered culture dish with what? The original culture medium. You have the blood. The blood carries the chemistry, which activates the genes. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 13:34 So the first point: Scientifically, it doesn't make a difference if the cell is in a plastic dish or a skin dish? I said, "No, it's the environment." And I say the environment in your body is the blood for the cells. Then come two questions that blow the game into a new evolution. Question number one: What controls the chemistry of the blood? The answer is the brain. It's the chemist. The big one—here it is, hold on: What chemistry should the brain put into the blood? You know what it is? Whatever picture you hold in your mind, the brain translates the picture into complimentary chemistry that matches the picture. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 14:25 I say, "So why is this important?" The picture in your head becomes material in your body. You manifest what you're thinking. I go: "Wait a minute. Would I manifest this life? Would I manifest my cancer?" I go, "Yes." I go, "You say that so affirmatively." I go: "Quantum physics—the most valid science principle number one [is that] the mind is the creator of our experience." I go: "Well, epigenetics is the biological component of that physics mechanism." Epigenetics is how the mind adjusts the genetics of the body. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 15:05 And I go, "We're facing a healthcare crisis on this planet." I go, "Yes, we are facing a healthcare crisis." And I go, "What's responsible?" We put all the money into science. You know what we're looking for? We're looking for the gene—the gene that controls that problem. Guess what? Less than 1% of all diseases on this planet have any connection with genes. Wait, then that means only less than 1% of what we diagnose as disease is connected with genes. I go, "Yes, that's a fact." Then what is really contributing to the worldwide crisis in healthcare? The answer is: Stress is 90% the cause of disease, minimum. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 15:54 I go: "Okay, come on! How could that do that?" Let's give the biology because it's not New Age again. You're ready? When you're in stress, you're in threat. When you're in threat, you engage a protection response. I say, "What is a protection response?" The protection response is: When you perceive stress, you will release stress hormones, adrenal hormones. I go, "Yes, so what?" Well, what do you think the adrenal hormones do? They prepare the body for fight or flight. I go, "So what?" I say: "First of all, there are three stages to take a body from health, happiness, joy—I'm in the garden, I love my life—to 'Ah! A sabertooth tiger's chasing me!'" I say, "So I have to switch from growth, boom, into protection." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 16:41 How does that happen? Three steps. Number one, stress hormones cause the blood vessels in the gut to constrict. Why? Because most of the blood is in the gut. I say, "Who cares?" I say: "Ah, but the blood is a source of energy. So if you need energy, you need blood." So I say, "So what's the point?" I say: "Most of the blood is in the gut, taking care of the body, cleaning, fixing, repairing, nourishing, and doing all those things. But the moment stress hormones come in, the blood vessels squeeze shut. People feel it in the body." "It's queasy. I feel very queasy when I'm in fear like this." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 17:16 I say: "But some people say butterflies in the stomach. Why?" The fluttering of the blood vessels shutting down—you can feel it. And it's a fluttering. And what's happening? The blood is being pushed to the arms and legs, and that's where I need to run away from that damn tiger. So number one, redistribute the blood. Where do I take it from? [From] growth and maintenance to protection. So I'm not funding growth and maintenance when I'm running from the tiger. I go, "No, you're not." Number two, the immune system is to protect me on the inside. If I'm being chased by a saber-toothed tiger, then what's the value of the immune system? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 17:55 I'll give you a scenario. Come on, doctors, listen to this. The patient's got a bacterial infection. They're going to have a real bad case of diarrhea coming up here and they're being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. How would you split the energy of the body? How much to support the immune system and how much of that energy to run away from the saber-toothed tiger? I'll give you a second. Okay, thank you. The answer is, of course, who cares about the immune system? If the tiger chased you, the bacteria are not your problem anymore, that's for sure. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 18:26 Listen, stress hormones shut down the immune system to conserve energy. And you know damn well that when people are sick, sometimes they don't even have the energy to get out of bed because the immune system uses a hell of a lot of energy. If you're being chased by a tiger: I can't support the immune system because if the tiger gets me, who cares about what's happening in the interior?—it's not mine anymore. It's so important—in fact, therapeutic—that when they transplant an organ from person A into person B and they don't want immunological rejection, they give the recipient stress hormones before the operation. That restricts the function of the immune system so it doesn't immediately reject the foreign graft. Ah, so stress hormones are used therapeutically to shut off the immune system. So I say, "Yes, what do you think stress does automatically?" That's number two. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 19:21 Number three, conscious processing is slow compared to reflex behavior. Conscious [processing] is like, "Oh, let me think." Reflex is boom! Boom! Like that. The point is, if you're running from a saber-toothed tiger, conscious processing is going to delay your nervous system because you'll be thinking. When that tiger is coming, guess what? Remember the role of the stress hormone—to squeeze the blood vessels here? They squeeze the blood vessels in the forebrain. I say, "Why?" Because it stops the blood flow from going to the conscious mind. Where's it going? The hindbrain—reflex behavior. Result: We become less intelligent in the fear process. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 20:11 So I say: "Let's put these all together. I shut down growth, I shut down the immune system, and I shut off conscious awareness." I go: "When was that system formed?" "Oh, a couple hundred thousand years ago." I say: "What was it responding to?" "The saber-toothed tiger?" I go: "So what was important?" "If you escape that tiger for five minutes or ten minutes, there's no more saber-toothed tiger, no more stress." So it was used for five to ten minutes. Shut it down [for] five to ten minutes; we'll come back later. In today's world—you know the whole thing—every day, every minute, we're in stress. The system was never designed for chronic stress. It shuts down the vitality, health, and maintenance of the body. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 21:01 The stresses of this world are responsible for over 90% of healthcare crises. This is recognized by the American Psychological Society: 95% of visits to doctors' offices [are] stress-related. I was a programmer. And I'm not proud now because, when I programmed, people used to believe in genetic determinism. I go: "No, no. I was wrong. Epigenetics, okay?" But we've been programmed to be victims. Dr. Jill 21:32 Yes. First of all, I think doctors are starting, at least in my realm of functional/integrative—we're talking epigenetics; we're using this. And I just want to share a personal example to bring home what you just shared. It's so important. Many of my listeners know that at 25, I had breast cancer, then Crohn's disease, and then autoimmunity. I'm the poster child. What I remember very clearly is that in my 30s, I got mold-related toxicity. My immune system was terribly trashed and overactive and I was under high stress. I remember one day walking along and realizing: "This stress that is in my body is actually killing me." I had the mentality [of] "beating cancer," "fighting cancer," "fighting this," "fighting that"—fighting, fighting, fighting—which is your saber-toothed tiger [description]. I was in fight or flight. Dr. Jill 22:16 The day I realized that was the day I realized I could also reprogram my immune system through my thoughts. That day I started thinking [up] a new paradigm, thinking about these little yellow minions being my immune system. They were helping escort mold toxicity out of my body without this fight because, [in] fight or flight, there's no healing. And now, today, I'm healed from that and from mold-related illness and all of this. But it's really that moment when I realized I could change my thought process, change the function of my immune system, recover from Crohn's, cancer, and toxic mold, and no longer fight. Dr. Jill 22:53 And the most important message, as you brought home, is that when I'm sitting with a patient, if they're in fear, if they are in fight or flight, and if they are feeling unsafe in their body, there is no amount of pills, supplements, IVs, nutrition, or even good advice that I can give them… Unless they go to that place of unsafeness, that place of fear, that place where they're still somatically running from the tiger. We have to change that, and it starts with this. Dr. Jill 23:22 So I love, love, love that you framed this. And I just want to give you credit because you've been doing this work for decades before anyone else was talking about it. And now we're seeing it. And finally, doctors in my field are starting to acknowledge and talk about it. But even in my field, functional medicine is a lot about supplements, diet, and lifestyle. That's all great. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 23:40 Well, that's environment! Dr. Jill 23:41 Right? Right. Actually, that's the thing I was going to mention too. My specialty is environmental toxicity, so I know the petri dish of how it affects our bodies. But I do believe, as you're saying, that this reprogramming of our mind… Do you have any stories or examples, maybe from your book, of a patient, client, or somebody who has read your book who really took this and changed from there? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 24:03 I've got hundreds and hundreds of letters from people who've written. There were two things about this. Let me express it even in my personal life. I understood this from a scientific point of view. Man, it was in my laboratory, my research. It was repeatable; I could do this all the time. It took 23 years before science caught up with that observation. I [inaudible] a lot of other things in between to conform. And the reality is that our own understanding about our frailty—it's an understanding. And then I give an understanding of, "No, we're very powerful." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 24:42 I was so happy to go and find an audience of doctors and people: "Let me explain how to create the most wonderful life. Here's the science!" And then they'd come to my lecture and they'd look at me and go: "Lipton, your life doesn't look that good for a guy who says you know this." Oh my God, I was caught. You know what it was? Talking the talk, not walking the talk. I knew the science. It was in my head. Did I make it part of my life? No! I say: "So what was the point? I don't care how smart you are; if you don't make a part of your life, it's irrelevant." Totally! Then all of a sudden, when I caught myself going, "Oh, do as I say, not as I do," it's like, "I can't do that!" So I had to say: "Stop lecturing. Start living your life with the principles you are telling other people. Live this now." How long did it take me to change my life? Oh, within a month, my life was completely on a whole different spectrum. And it was like, "Now, of course, I start talking about it again," because it was real. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 25:47 Let me just give a simple understanding, a scientific understanding, and that is this: The mind is not one thing. "Oh, the mind." I go: "No, not the mind. There are two minds. And they're interdependent, but they have different functions." The conscious mind, the latest evolution: The prefrontal cortex, right behind your forehead, [is] the seat of the conscious mind. What's that? The conscious mind is your source, your personal identity, your spiritual place. What else is it? It's creative! That's what makes humans different than all the other animals. We can take ideas, boom, build them, and create in the conscious mind. What about the subconscious mind? Oh, the original one? Hard drive, programs, habits, stored behavior. Thinking? Uh-uh. Just behavior—program. Dr. Jill 26:38 The subconscious has no way to differentiate truth, right? It does whatever you tell it to do. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 26:44 No, well, the subconscious doesn't do what you tell it to do; it does what it tells it to do. The subconscious is the autopilot. I say, yes, the mind works, but you have to understand that when I'm in the conscious mind, that is the creative side. That's the side with wishes, desires, and aspirations. What do you want? Conscious mind. Subconscious mind: Program. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 27:09 I say, "So what's the issue with our life when it comes down to it?" The monkey wrench that blows the whole thing out is that when the conscious mind is thinking, it's not paying attention to the outer world. A thought is inside. When you're present, your conscious mind is looking at the world and engaging the world. Right now, in front of it, I'm engaging it. But if I'm thinking, my conscious mind is no longer looking out; it's looking in because a thought is on the inside. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 27:38 So I say, "Wait, what if I'm driving the car and I have a thought?" And I've got to tell you, in fact: Then you're not driving the car. "What do you mean? No accident or nothing." I say: "Driving is a program. You don't have to think about driving." In fact, most of the time, if you've been driving for a long time, you never think about the details of driving. It's an automatic behavioral program. It plays when you're not paying attention. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 28:02 I go: "Aha! When the conscious mind is thinking, it's not paying attention to the outer world. Why? It's inside." So I say: Walking, driving, talking, doing your job—hey, those are habits. You've been doing it all—whatever [it is]—for a long period of time. You don't have to re-learn it. It's automatic. Do you even have to think about walking? No, you didn't even have to say: "Oh, I'm going to walk from here to there. I'm going to get that." I say: "Walking is automatic. You don't think about it—program." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 28:37 So then comes the number and this is scientific: Ninety-five percent of the day is the average person's amount of thinking. Then what does that represent? Biologically, only five percent of the day are you creating your life with the conscious mind's wishes and desires. Ninety-five percent of the day your life is coming from programs that you downloaded mainly before age seven. And I go, "Where did I get the programs?" I go: "Before age seven, your brain is not primarily functioning at the level of consciousness, which in EEG terms is alpha, beta, and gamma. When you're under seven, you're operating primarily at theta, which is just below consciousness." Theta—imagination. Hey, the tea party: Pour nothing into the cup. Drink the nothing. "The best tea I ever had in my life!" That's imagination. That's theta. That's what kids do all the time. They can have imaginary friends. They play with them all the time. It's imagination. Theta is hypnosis. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 29:41 I go, "Why is that important?" How many rules does it take to be a member of a family? How many rules does it take to be a member of a community? Now we're talking thousands. I go, "Why is that important?" I said, "Well, teach an infant a thousand rules." I go: "They can't read a book. They can't sit in a classroom. They can't understand a video." I said: "How are they going to learn?" Nature took care of that. Nature gave the first seven years theta, which is hypnosis. You want to know the behavior? Watch your mother, watch your father, watch your community. Watch their behavior; download it. Now it's your behavior! Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 30:19 So the behavior that's in your subconscious mind didn't even come from you, did it? Nope, it came from other people. And did they answer your wishes and desires—what you'd like? Not necessarily. So then, are there programs in there that give you what your wishes and desires are? Not necessarily, no. In fact, I say, "So what about these programs?" Sixty percent of the things you downloaded as a kid—sixty percent of the subconscious programs [are] disempowering, self-sabotaging, and limiting beliefs. And you operate ninety-five percent of the day from them. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 30:53 Ah, but here's the monkey wrench you didn't catch! Why am I using my subconscious programs? Because my conscious mind's not paying attention; it's thinking. Well, then, do you see the programs when they come out? I go: "Nope! You're the only one who doesn't even see the program!" Why? Everybody else around you is responding to your program. You're not even paying attention [to] what the hell is coming out. Sixty percent of it [is] disempowering yourself. So the issue is this: We are not controlling our lives. Our program controls our lives. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 31:28 I say, "Oh, this is a new science." I go: "Scientifically, this is valid. This is understanding theta activity, downloading programs, conscious, subconscious, blah, blah, blah, blah." But the Jesuits knew about programming for 400 years. They would tell their followers, "Give me a child until it is seven, and I will show you the man." Oh my God, that's 100% right! The programming is before age seven, and 95% of the life is the program. They knew it. They created Catholic schools to help the programming go along. And that idea is never lost because if you can watch an infant today, which I've seen carrying an iPad, interacting with a program on a computer, that's far better programming than Jesuits could ever have thought of. Dr. Jill 32:17 Yes, it's clear, isn't it? That's a really good transition because one of the things I see as the biggest crisis in healthcare is environment, but it's environment that is no longer socially interactive or present. We're numbing ourselves out with machines, with iPads, and with phones. They are designed to create an addictive behavior, so they're tapping into some of those subconscious programs, right? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 32:40 And let me just add this to that: It's not just that behavior, but it's also creating disempowering behaviors. So these programs—as you were just going to say, and I'll let you have it back again—were not designed to help us; they were designed to control us. Dr. Jill 33:05 Yes. And sell and control. Yes, so we are pawns in this new world of technology that is neurodynamically designed to be addictive. If you haven't seen The Social Dilemma, that's a great place to start in your education on social media and the impact. I do want to talk about this. One of the things you just got done saying is that before seven, we're programmed. I totally understand and believe that. But the truth is, we have the power to change that programming. Tell us about that. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 33:36 Most everybody out there has changed that programming. I say, "You've already done it." I say: "What, the movie The Matrix, being a documentary, everybody's programmed?" Yes, of course, that's the foundational belief of the movie and the reality. And in the movie, they offered the red pill. And I say: "What was the red pill? You get out of the program!" Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 33:54 I go, "Almost everybody out here right now listening has done that." I say: "What was the consequence? How did it happen?" I'm going to tell you. Falling in love is a red pill. I go, "What do you mean?" Because when you first fall in love, you stop thinking. Biologically, you stay present; you stay in the conscious, creative mind. You've waited for this person your whole life. They're there. What, you want to start thinking and then ignore them? Are you kidding me? You stay up conscious. You stay mindful. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 34:23 I say, "So what happened?" I say: "Your life up to meeting that person: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You meet them [and] 24 hours later: 'Oh, man, life is beautiful. Life is so wonderful. Hey, the food's really good. That music is even better than I ever thought it was.'" And even the crappy job is not so crappy. I said: "What'd you do?" You made honeymoon. What's honeymoon? Heaven on earth. I said, "What was your heaven on earth?" Whatever you wished and desired. You and a partner coming together when you're both wishing and desiring, you're sharing the same wishes and desires, you manifest a honeymoon. Oops, I dropped something, but okay. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 35:01 Is the honeymoon already there? I go, "The honeymoon's always there." I said, "Then how come you don't have it?" Because when you start thinking, you then go back to subconscious control, the default. And the problem is, why do 50% of marriages end up in divorce? The answer is this: Marriage has started with the relationship of two conscious creative minds sharing together a belief in creating a honeymoon, and it ends when thinking enters into the people and they start playing their regular programs, which are 60% negative. The partner hears these programs. The one saying the thing doesn't hear it; the other one hears it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 35:43 I love the response. When somebody comes out in a relationship and the loving partner hears some kind of BS come out of their other partner, they look at them and go: "Who are you? Where did you come from?" What? It was never part of the behavior. And then, all of a sudden, it shows up. And the more thinking, the more that negativity shows up. There's a point where a partner will say: "That's enough. That's not why I signed up here. I signed up because we had a great honeymoon." After you started thinking, this thing went right down the tube. The point is, that's what reality is about. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 36:18 So the idea then becomes simple, which is the obvious thing: "What if I created all programs that represented my wishes and desires—if I had those programs?" I said: "Oh, you know what? Whether you're consciously creating those wishes and desires or your conscious mind is off in left field, your subconscious will be manifesting the wishes and desires. And guess what? A honeymoon is not a short period. A honeymoon is every day of your life for as long as you live." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 36:46 Does it work? Personally, I had some very bad programming when I was young because my mother and father had a dysfunctional relationship. I downloaded my father's dysfunctional behavior. I played it when I couldn't see it. The result is that I couldn't get relationships off the ground. Then I understood the nature of the programming. Then I understand the nature of reprogramming. Around 50, I met my partner, Margaret. We just celebrated 28 years! And I'm not selling just a relationship; I'm talking honeymoon for 28 years. To wake up every day in my life and go: "Oh my God, I'm still here. Oh my God, I have another day to smell the roses, to have a piece of cake, to enjoy the love, watch the environment, and love my life." I celebrate life. Jill celebrates life. What's the result? Where's the illness? What illness? Dr. Jill 37:45 Yes! I love that. There are some points that I think are so crucial that you just made, number one, being present with our partners, watching them in real time and observing them. So often we create a program of them, a template, and then we don't expect them to change. Or, we expect them to behave the same. And when we're in real time, present with another person—whether it's a friend, family member, business associate, or lover—we can respond in real time. And that's part of that co-creation that you're talking about. It's crucial. Dr. Jill 38:15 The other thing is that with illness, I find one thing that was—I'm sure this is related to the program, [and] I'd love your comments—I never identified with the cancer. I never became the cancer. I never made that part of who I was. Even now, I'm like, "Oh yes, 20 years ago, I had cancer." And of course, it's real, but it's almost foreign because it was never part of me. And I really believe that's a huge part of why I overcame a very, very aggressive cancer at the age of 25—because it never was my identity. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 38:44 Yes, let's just talk about this. The first thing is that I'm going to give a fact of science [to] which [a person might say], "He really said that?" And I'm going to say, yes, I'm going to say this. There's not one gene that causes cancer. There's not a gene [where], "You have this gene, you get cancer." The one scary one for women, of course, [is] the breast cancer gene. I go, "So what?" I go: "Women who carry the breast cancer gene don't necessarily have to have cancer. As a matter of fact, nearly half of them don't get cancer. But they have the gene." So then I say, "Then where did the cancer come from?"—because those who have the cancer with the gene and those who are healthy with the gene have the same gene. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 39:20 What's the difference? The answer is this: Cancer is correlated with a gene, not caused by a gene. Cancer is caused by disharmony in the system. Disharmony is the source of disease. Harmony is the source of health. Disharmony means your programming wasn't really good, and you're responding to things in a negative way that is going to cause a breakdown of the system. That's where the stress comes into it. So the concept is this: The image—even if once you tell a woman, "Yes, you have the breast cancer gene," what the hell image do you think is going to be in her head? The answer is: Cancer. I go: "Yes, but isn't the function of the mind to take the image of the head and turn it into reality?" I go, "Absolutely! What's the consequence?" Ninety percent of cancer has no genetic linkage at all. Dr. Jill 40:14 Yes. That was the biggest question I got as a 25-year-old. Every single person, to a T: "Oh, did you have genes?" No, I didn't have genes. I had a dysfunctional system when I was in my 20s. That goes into a whole other lecture that I could give, but I was not living consciously. And there were some things, stress-wise, that were contributing. And it was the environmental toxic load. So all of these things are the petri dish. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 40:38 And more than that, there must have been the two programs. Eighty to ninety percent of all people will not test positive for two beliefs. Number one, and I think the most important, is the belief, "I love myself." Eighty percent of people will not test positive for that belief. Number two, and this is the one where the healthcare crisis comes from: "I am safe." When you have a picture of fear, then the chemistry of fear is to manifest the fear. When they say "This is it" and [show you] a picture of the tumor and everything, then you make the chemistry of the tumor. Then the idea is that we have to own quantum physics. Consciousness is the source of our life experiences. We have to understand the nature of epigenetics. Consciousness is the source of what controls our genes. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 41:07 The third thing that I think is part of the Renaissance that we really must emphasize at some point is Newtonian physics, which separates physical from non-physical, matter versus energy. It's an illusion. It's not real. But it programs us in a very bad way because the program says: "Whatever is made out of matter can only be affected by matter. Whatever is made out of energy can only be affected by energy." And I say, "So what's the consequence?" I say: "The body is matter. And what do you think the whole foundation of the pharmaceutical company is? The body is matter and we make the matter to fix the matter." Dr. Jill 42:16 Yes. What's the matter with that? [laughs] Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 42:18 Three hundred thousand people die in the US every year from prescription drugs, that's what's the matter with it, when less than 50,000—I think 30,000—people die from illegal drugs. We have a war on illegal drugs, and 300,000 people dying from pharmaceutical drugs is called the cost of doing medicine. I go: "That's damn expensive! We don't need that." Simple law of science: If a drug works, it only works because you already had a receptor for that drug on you. Do you think nature put receptors on cells, waiting for the pharmaceutical company to make a drug? No, come on, man! If you have a receptor for a drug, it's because you have a receptor for a drug that you make. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 43:01 I go, "I can make any drug." Of course, because any drug works because you have a receptor to connect it. If you have a receptor, then you obviously have a signal that will bind to that receptor. Then you say, "Well, it's not working." And that's where everything gets screwed up because that system isn't working and then you go right away: "Oh, the body is defective. The genes aren't working right. There's an interference with the physical." I go, "Yes, there was an interference because it didn't start down here; it started up here." And once you start to understand this, yes, treat the body if there's an immediate need to treat the body, but the process of treating the patient is treating this part. Knowledge is power. They do not have the knowledge of who they are. They're programmed [to think]: "I'm a victim of my genes and I have no power." I go, "Well, there's your problem." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 43:54 And the issue about it is that you guys are in the front of the evolution that says: Okay, I can treat the patient, but I've really got to treat the consciousness of the patient. Why? Because, as quantum physics says, consciousness is the source of this creativity, and as epigenetics says, consciousness is the source of this expression. You cannot leave that out. Dr. Jill 44:18 You just talked about two beliefs that I think are critical and it's a great place to kind of wrap up. The first one is: Do we love ourselves? Do we really, really, truly love and accept ourselves? I have written a book and done a movie on that message. The heart of healing is: How do we show self-compassion and love? Because that is the only way that our cells will respond in health. Dr. Jill 44:41 The second thing was so crucial too, and that is the fear and the unsafety. This is where a physician in the office can make all the difference, because if they add to that fear message, guess what? That's just adding to that patient's unhealth. So one thing we are obligated to do as physicians is create a safe environment and teach that patient how to start to feel safe in their body. With those two beliefs, maybe in the last couple of minutes here, could you maybe give us some practical advice for somebody who's like: "How do I start doing that, Bruce? How do I feel safe in my body? And how do I love myself?" Because that, I couldn't agree more with you, is really the core message here. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 45:19 I'll tell you, let's get right to the root of why people do not love themselves. The answer is: Because parents act like coaches on a sports team. I go, "What does that mean?" A player isn't doing well. What does the coach say? "Oh, do better." No! The coach says: "That's not good enough. Who do you think you are? You don't deserve to be on this team." Well, a player is older than seven. They're in consciousness. They understand that the coach is saying, "You better do better!" Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 45:47 Now let's say the parent is the coach and the kid is under seven. There's no consciousness operating. What's operating? Hypnosis, programming. So when the father says, "That's not good enough, you don't deserve this, you're not lovable, you don't belong," blah, blah, blah—acting like the coach who says, "This is going to make them do better"—if the kid is under seven, you just programmed them to self-sabotage because the subconscious is going to create 95% of their life. And if I get a program "I do not deserve," when I'm thinking 95% of the day, what the hell program is running? "I do not deserve." So I could say something so stupid in my corporate structure or something, and somebody says, "That guy doesn't deserve to be here." And then, all of a sudden, I'm kicked out of the structure. Why? Because I myself made behavior to conform to "not good enough" and to not love myself. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 46:41 This is why that one's so important—because if you can't love yourself, I'm going to be honest, you can't accept love from somebody else. I go, "Why?" Because they say they love you, but in your mind, you're going: "Well, they don't know me, man. I know I'm not lovable." And you'll push them away. And then you'll find yourself with nobody around. And guess what you'll say? "You see?! I'm not lovable!" [inaudible] You just did that. And when it comes to "Do I have any power?" the answer is: No, it has been systematically deprived of them. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 46:59 I've got a minute; I've got to say this because this is really cool. There's a power struggle in the world. It's always been this way. There are three levels of power. Number one, caveman. Who's the biggest badass with the biggest club? Whatever they say, do it. They've got the power. Evolution came along. There are people then who control the resources that you need. And all of a sudden they say, "If you want those resources, you've got to give me something for this." And you know what? The ones who had the resources paid the caveman to hit you over the head if you didn't pay for the resources. Dr. Jill 47:53 A personal hitman. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 47:55 That's the king who owns the resources with an army of cavemen. Then I say, "But the last of the power struggles came down to 'knowledge is power.'" And it was recognized that, yes, that is the supreme power of everything. Knowledge is power. The first thing the church of Rome did was acknowledge: "We are the source of infallible knowledge. We are the source of truth. We say it; it's true." Well, you say, "I don't care." The point about it was that people gave up their power to the belief. And I say it here very quickly: There's a code behind the power brokers. I call it the powermongers' credo. I say, "What is it?" Are you ready? Give them the fear for free and then sell them the antidote. Dr. Jill (pre-recording) 48:46 Hey, everybody. I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected: Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science, and Faith, is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming a life-threatening illness and the tools, tips, tricks, hope, and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein-Barr, and mold- and biotoxin-related illnesses. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by ReadUnexpected.com. There, you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine and finding resilience. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 50:59 "What do you want me to do? Put a mask on? Sure. I'll mask on. I can't visit my mom, who's dying in a nursing home?" "No, you have to give that up because you can't do that." "Really?" Dr. Jill 51:09 Yes. If you're controlled, then fear created the biology of illness. It really, really is a great analogy. Bruce, this has been so fun to dive deep. I love talking to you. I love your enthusiasm. I love your wisdom. And I love most of all that you were so far ahead of the curve because people are kind of coming along to this belief. But the truth is, you were one of the very first ones writing and talking about this. And I'm just grateful that way back in the day, in the lab, you saw this and started writing about it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 51:44 I can't be any happier than I am for myself! I have a different life! I have a different life than before that discovery. Dr. Jill 51:53 Yes. And it transforms us all, too. I have many stories, the same thing, of me continuing to transform because of this knowledge. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for spending your time with us today!](https://www.jillcarnahan.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Bruce-Lipton-Biology-of-Belief-Can-Your-Mind-Spontaneously-Transform-Your-Health_-WEB-1.jpg)
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