Welcome to Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan, where we delve deep into the world of chronic illness and discover groundbreaking insights to crack the code. In this episode, Dr. Carnahan sits down with the brilliant Dr. Nafysa Parpia to explore the complex landscape of chronic illness and its impact on our health and the immune system.
As we navigate the post-pandemic era, we find ourselves facing the long-term effects of Covid-19, commonly known as Long Covid. Dr. Parpia, a renowned expert in chronic illness, sheds light on the connection between infections, the immune system, and the development of chronic illnesses.
Key Points
- Complex chronic illness treatment starts with heart-based safe space and unconditional love
- Why you must start with immune system dysfunction before you treat infections and what is the importance of “pre-tox”
- The connection between long-term COVID symptoms and chronic complex illness and how to treat it.
Our Guest – Dr. Nafysa Parpia
Cracking the Chronic Illness Code: https://chronicillnesscode.byhealthmeans.com/?idev_id=1492
The Gordon Medical: https://gordonmedical.com/
Dr. Nafysa Parpia: https://drparpia.com/
Dr. Nafysa Parpia is a board-certified Naturopathic Doctor and Director of Naturopathic Medicine at Gordon Medical. Throughout her career in holistic medicine, she has focused on treating patients with complex chronic illnesses. She specializes in tick-borne illness/Lyme Disease, environmentally acquired illness, mold/mycotoxin illness, autoimmunity, fibromyalgia, Long Haul COVID, and ME/CFS (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome). She uses cutting-edge laboratory tests and deep intuition applied to the full range of scientific data to create comprehensive treatment plans that are highly personalized.
Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD
Dr. Jill Carnahan is Your Functional Medicine Expert® dually board certified in Family Medicine for ten years and in Integrative Holistic Medicine since 2015. She is the Medical Director of Flatiron Functional Medicine, a widely sought-after practice with a broad range of clinical services including functional medical protocols, nutritional consultations, chiropractic therapy, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, and massage therapy.
As a survivor of breast cancer, Crohn’s disease, and toxic mold illness she brings a unique perspective to treating patients in the midst of complex and chronic illness. Her clinic specializes in searching for the underlying triggers that contribute to illness through cutting-edge lab testing and tailoring the intervention to specific needs.
A popular inspirational speaker and prolific writer, she shares her knowledge of hope, health, and healing live on stage and through newsletters, articles, books, and social media posts! People relate to Dr. Jill’s science-backed opinions delivered with authenticity, love and humor. She is known for inspiring her audience to thrive even in the midst of difficulties.
Featured in Shape Magazine, Parade, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, First for Women, Townsend Newsletter, and The Huffington Post as well as seen on NBC News and Health segments with Joan Lunden, Dr. Jill is a media must-have. Her YouTube channel and podcast features live interviews with the healthcare world’s most respected names.
The Podcast
The Video
The Transcript
193: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Cracking the Chronic Illness Code with Dr. Nafysa Parpia
Dr. Jill 00:12
Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for the most cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm Dr. Jill, your host. In each episode, we delve into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research and practice. Our mission is to empower you with knowledge and inspiration, aiding you in your journey to optimal health.
Dr. Jill 00:37
Today is no different. I have my dear friend who is an expert in mold, mycotoxins, and chronic illness. We're going to dive deep into all of the questions and, hopefully, the answers that you might want regarding the complexities in chronic illness that we see in our society. Whether you're facing it or a friend or family member is, hopefully today you will get the answers that you're looking for.
Dr. Jill 01:00
Dr. Nafysa Parpia is a board-certified naturopathic doctor and director of naturopathic medicine at Gordon Medical. Throughout her career in holistic medicine, she has focused on treating patients with complex chronic illness. She specializes in tick-borne illnesses, Lyme disease, environmentally acquired illness, mold and mycotoxin illness, autoimmunity, fibromyalgia, long-haul COVID, and chronic fatigue syndrome. She uses cutting-edge laboratory testing and deep intuition applied to the full range of scientific data to create comprehensive treatment plans that are highly personalized. Dr. Nafysa, thank you so much for being here today!
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 01:39
Thank you so much for joining me. It's always such a pleasure to be with you!
Dr. Jill 01:43
I agree. It's so wonderful to connect with another human being who uses science, the mind, and intuition and pulls it all together. Before we start into the complexities and chronicities of illness, tell us a little bit about: How did you get into naturopathic medicine? And how has your journey been to arrive here?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 01:59
Yes. A long time ago—many lifetimes ago, it feels like—I was doing fundraising and it paid my bills. But I was not tapping into my human potential. I knew there was so much more for me to do in the world to help people. I became a yoga instructor. That was wonderful. But still, I knew there was more. So I went to a naturopathic medical school and they trained us to be great primary care physicians. I was so happy to get that training and to be teaching yoga at the same time. Still, I knew there was more. I wasn't finding that I was able to go deep with people. Maybe I could help people with a common cold or with some basic primary care. I was aching to work with people on a very deep level of healing.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 02:56
So I sought out Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt while I was in Seattle at Bastyr. I sought him out to learn from. I took all of his courses and ended up, after I graduated, spending a year in his clinic, learning from him and his top doctors there. I remember sitting on a table once when he was with a patient and I was covered in goosebumps. I knew: “This is my patient population. These are the people who I'm going to be working with”—people with complex chronic illness. The mysterious illnesses. It was really this deep longing within me to work with people in their human condition and in healing that led me here. Then I sought out all kinds of other training to learn this, which we're not taught in medical school or naturopathic school. So that was my journey that led me here.
Dr. Jill 03:59
Well, I am so glad you're here today. You and I share this really deep, profound understanding that there's science and our analytical mind and we love to use that—and you're one of the most brilliant people I know—but at the other side of that is our deep wisdom and intuition. And there's a huge piece I feel with these complex chronic illnesses that we need to bring in that heart-centered medicine. Let's just start there. What is it about your approach to medicine? And how do you bring in that heart-centered approach? You and I know that some powerful answers and insights come there. And it's always such a pleasure to talk to you because not everyone lives in that space and sees patients with that authenticity.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 04:42
It's true. You and I both live in this space, so we bring it to our patients. You and I both use a lot of scientific knowledge and data looking at people's biochemistry, genes, microbiomes, and toxins. We can get into all of that afterward, but I love that you want to start this conversation this way, talking about the heart of medicine. How do we approach all of these biochemical things with heart?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 05:14
One thing I know is that when any patient comes with a complex chronic illness, they're in a very sacred time of their life. It's like we're walking on holy ground as we're working with these patients. They're in a stage of healing. But we know it's not just physical healing. When the body is speaking so loudly in so many different systems, it's really also about the spirit speaking, the mind speaking—the whole being. The body is giving us messages on the spirit and on the mental level that want to be heard and that want to be integrated with the biochemical healing that we also bring. So for me, it's [about] really listening to that patient and understanding what it is that's aching to be heard and seen in this world. And we just move from there.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 06:19
Some people have a spiritual practice; some people don't. It doesn't matter, as long as it's helping that person find the depths of who they are and their self-value and self-love. But I also know that we as doctors have to, I know you do the same thing… I have my own practice to keep myself clear so that I'm not bringing my own filter, my own traumas, or my own issues to the table. We doctors are human as well, so we need to keep ourselves clear, put our own stuff to the side, and approach our patients as the clear vessel [and be] the best that we can be in order to really be there, hear, and understand. And I pray. I pray for divine guidance to show me the path for each patient.
Dr. Jill 07:12
That's so well said, and I could not agree more with you. It just reminded me. I pulled out this quote I heard this morning. It was a Russian lady who had been through trauma and war and lost her husband and her son. Over and over and over [it's been] difficult, difficult [for her]. Way worse than you and I have maybe ever faced. She said: “Every trouble wants to draw the very best of you back into the world.” I wrote it down. I hadn't planned to share that, but it makes so much sense with what you're saying.
Dr. Jill 07:44
So often [in] these difficulties, these chronic illnesses—and you and I are in the field of medicine, so we're dealing with complex chronic illness that maybe takes us off track from our plans for a career, marriage, having children, or whatever kind of thing that we think is the next step—we get ill from something. Something's happening to change that. But it's actually drawing us into the world to fully participate. So I love that you said that. Truly, I've found—I've had a lot of illness in my life—if you view illness as a teacher, it can be so transformative instead of disruptive. It's hard to face it and it's really hard when we start asking why. But I think there are better questions. Maybe we can say, “How can this transform us?” instead of “Why is this happening?”
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 08:27
Right. And patients know. Very often, I'll tell them: “At some point, I think you're going to tell me what the silver lining is. I think you're going to tell me why.” A lot of times people say: “You know what? I already know why. I already know that I'm becoming wiser. I'm becoming stronger. I'm becoming more me. And even though I've hated being sick, I'm really grateful for it because it's lifted me to this level of healing on all levels.” I would say that almost every single patient who's come out the other end from being sick to wellness has said this. I can't think of a patient who hasn't thanked the illness at the end of the day because they're walking stronger. They're walking healed in every aspect. They're a different person.
Dr. Jill 09:21
Yes. I love that because if we can see it as transformative, it truly can be some of the best things that happen. It involves suffering. It involves difficulties. This is not easy. We're not saying that you should just walk and skip along and say everything's great, because it's not. But there's an understanding that there's a deeper meaning.
Dr. Jill 09:38
Before we go on to chronic complex [illnesses such as] Lyme, mold-[related illness], and long COVID, I want to ask you a quick question and I'd love to hear. You mentioned centering yourself and your own practices to be in that place. Are there any practical day-to-day things that you try to incorporate for your own health and mental and spiritual well-being every day that would be helpful for our listeners to hear?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 09:59
Yes. I meditate every day. I say prayers. I make my prayers very, very specific. I have two spiritual teachers from indigenous healing practices. I remember one of them teaching me about a decade ago: “Really say the fine print of your prayers and connect with God” or the great spirit or whatever someone wants to call it—consciousness or that deeper sense within you if you don't believe in that. But to really connect with consciousness and to say the fine print, like you're looking at the back of a shampoo bottle or an instruction bottle. Say it very clearly to yourself. That's what I do. I'm very clear on what my prayers are, manifesting them very specifically. I also meditate using [my] silent mind as much as I can to focus on my breath. So it's a combination of both of those things. Also, [it's about] connecting with nature and the earth as much as possible.
Dr. Jill 11:09
Great tips—and so practical—that we can all access.
So, let's shift now to the complex chronic illnesses. In your bio—we'll mention links too at the end of this show—you've got a summit coming up. Give us the title of that and then stay tuned for links wherever you're watching this podcast if you want to see more of Dr. Nafysa. But what's the title?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 11:29
It's called “Cracking the Chronic Illness Code: Ticks, Toxins & Mold”. I'm very excited. You're on the summit. Everyone can watch YouTube here. It's great!
Dr. Jill (pre-recording) 11:41
Hey, everybody. I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected: Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science, and Faith, is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming a life-threatening illness and the tools, tips, tricks, hope, and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein-Barr and mold- and biotoxin-related illnesses. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by ReadUnexpected.com. There, you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine and finding resilience.
Dr. Jill 12:37
It'll be so fun! Yes, we have another interview. So let's dive into that. Let's just start with the first one: Ticks, tick-borne infections, Lyme disease. Some people who are listeners are very, very familiar with this; others are not. Maybe let's just start with the framework: How often are you seeing this as part of the chronic illness? And how does it interplay with the other things you mentioned—environmental toxins and even long COVID?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 13:01
Yes. This is something I see almost every day in my practice. We are a Lyme clinic but [we do] so much more than Lyme, [including] environmental medicine. When someone comes in and they have a diagnosis of chronic Lyme—or say they don't even have a diagnosis of chronic Lyme, just a mystery diagnosis but there's a lot of pain in their body and mysterious symptoms—I'm testing them for Lyme. But I'm testing them for many other things at the same time. I think that people like to think: “Oh, it's just Lyme. Treat my Lyme!” But I tell my patients: When you've been sick for a long time and went to infectious disease or to a Lyme-literate doctor and it didn't work or it backfired, there's something else that's going on. This isn't just Lyme.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 13:52
I tell them there are usually five reasons people get sick—five root causes: Infections, toxins, structural integrity issues, lifestyle, and diet. When it comes to infections in these patients, there are usually multiple different infections. It's very common that there are tick-borne illnesses. I'm testing for that. That could be Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Ehrlichia, or Rickettsia. It's very common for people to have all of these infections from the tick. But they also typically have parasites. They have fungus issues. They have a high viral load, different viruses, and different bacteria in different systems of the body—the genitourinary system, the gut, possibly the lungs, and colonizations in the sinuses, the nervous system, and in the connective tissue if it is a tick-borne disease. They've got all these different layers of infection in different systems of the body.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 14:57
They often have environmental toxins. I know you know all of this but for our audience, I just want them to understand what we see every day: Heavy metals—very, very common—glyphosate, mycotoxins, pesticides, solvents. Very common. Structure integrity issues—I'm usually seeing two different extremes: People with tight tissues and tight fascia. When that's happening, there's no optimal circulation or lymphatic flow. A lot of our patients also have lax ligaments. They just come in that way genetically. They're that way. But if they have mast cell activation syndrome, those chemicals from the mast cells are tenderizing their ligaments. Imagine this ligament here that's holding up the brainstem. If that gets lax, there's pressure on the brainstem. So we see people with cranial-cervical instability.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 15:53
Now, lifestyle—I'm talking about sleep but I'm also talking about trauma, adverse childhood events, the trauma of being ill, and then diet. Most of our patients have their diet dialed in by the time they come to us. But all their lives, they've probably had the standard American diet—food wrapped in plastic, not organic. I tell my patients: If you have just one of these issues going on and it's been chronic [for] six months or longer, chances are you're going to see some pathologies. But most of these patients have all five of these going on at the same time, and it's been a minimum of six months, usually years. Now it becomes a very personalized thing.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 16:37
We’ve got immune dysregulation, first of all—five of these issues—creating inflammation. That inflammation then meets the genes and we get these secondary illnesses: Chronic fatigue syndrome, long COVID, fibromyalgia, or chronic Lyme [disease]. Those are secondary illnesses, but they become the person’s own expression. It’s more now about how the body, the mind, and the spirit—the whole being—have responded, even more so than the triggers once they’ve been sick for a while.
Dr. Jill 17:17
I don’t know if I’ve ever heard such a concise, clear… I can picture the poster where all these things are coming together, and it makes so much sense. Hopefully, those of you listening are seeing yourself in some of those places. What I would love to ask you, for the sake of our listeners, is: Say someone comes in and they have a history of Bartonella and Lyme. They’ve had mold in their environment. They have structural issues with hypermobility. Maybe they have the diet somewhat dialed in with a gluten-free, dairy-free, and sugar-free diet. Not perfect as far as timing or resting. This whole thing. Where would you start? Give us a little bit of a rundown on how you’d approach that patient.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 17:56
I usually like to start with what's downstream first. I think of all the root causes: Infections, toxins, lifestyle, structure integrity, and diet. I'm often starting with the… I was about to say immune dysregulation. But really, the first place I start—one of the first places you and I just started with this conversation—is the heart, really knowing: Who is the person in front of me? Where is their heart? Where are they in their life? What do they want? Can they picture themselves being well? If they can't, then I know that we're starting in a different place than somebody who can see themselves being well. Some people are afraid to be well. [It's about] really understanding: Who is in front of me? What are their fears? What are their hopes? What are their dreams? What are their goals? What emotional and spiritual state are they in, in addition to the physical state they're in? So I'm starting there.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 19:01
A lot of the healing work starts there. We have healers that we work with, or I might be doing the work with them. When it comes to biochemistry, I start working on immune regulation first. Most of our patients have, as a downstream effect, immune dysregulation—meaning they've got a hyperactive immune system on one side and a weak immune system on the other side.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 19:25
On the one hand, they've got autoimmune conditions—rheumatoid arthritis, Hashimoto's, lupus, or Sjogren's, for example. They have mast cell activation syndrome. I'm sure there are patients saying, “That's me!” They've got this hyperactive immune system. On the other hand, they've got a weak immune system. They can't mount the appropriate immune responses to kill off the multiple chronic infections that they have. Or their immune system is more permissive to infections that we're commonly exposed to. Or infections that are dormant—for example, the herpes family of viruses like Epstein-Barr virus or cytomegalovirus. They've been dormant, but something comes along—maybe COVID—and the inflammatory cytokine flare wakes up those dormant viruses. So it's common that these people have hyperactivity and weakness in their immune system at the same time.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 20:22
I'm working to regulate that. That's one of the first things I do because I know that if I were to go after their chronic infections first or detoxify them first, I'm just going to increase inflammation. It just comes with the territory. We kill infections; we're going to create inflammation. But these patients are already in a highly inflamed state. They're stuck in cell danger response 1. Inflammation is meant to be transient. But with these patients, their immune system doesn't know what transient means when it comes to inflammation because they're stuck in creating an inflammatory process that was originally [meant] to protect the body and contain the insults. But their bodies don't know how to stop.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 21:06
So I'm working on stopping that inflammatory process because, when I kill the infections, I don't want to contribute to more inflammation. I tell my patients: “It's like I'm packing new soil into your garden because I'm about to pull out some nasty weeds. If I start to do that now, we're going to create landslides. So let's set the stage first. Get your body ready for this.” So, I'm using a lot of peptide therapies to modulate their immune response.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 21:35
Another downstream effect I'm seeing is hormonal dysregulation. I know you're seeing it in your patients all the time. [It's about] working on their hormones and the terrain of their system so that when it comes time to work on the big root causes, they can handle it. And that's where we start.
Dr. Jill 21:54
That makes so much sense. It is true. Whether you're listening or are a doctor like you and I are, if you just start to blow up the infections, which we can do, they're in a world of hurt. Their body can't handle that toxic load. The other thing I heard in your story as far as how you approach patients is that you're creating a space for them to feel seen and heard first. I think what you're doing is creating safety, right? That is such a core—creating that bond, that connection to your practitioner. If you're out there listening and don't have a doctor who can sit with you, really listen, and [make] you feel heard, you probably need to find someone different. Honestly, being heard and listened to and feeling safe like you're under their care is so core! And let's just digress for a moment and talk about this safety, because if the body isn't feeling safe, there's no amount of healing that can take place, right?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 22:47
It's so true. It's up to us to initiate that safe space, because then the patient will tell you everything. And we need to hear everything without judgment.
Dr. Jill 23:01
Right. I love that because I felt, as you were talking, that's such a foundation. And you're just going through because that's what you do, but I wanted listeners to hear. This is really transformational. I feel like the secret weapon—and I'm sure your clinic and mine—is unconditional love and acceptance. And I'm sure you've had this as well, where patients are in tears because: “Doc, no one's ever listened to me. No one's ever really heard.” And that ability to feel seen and heard is at the core of healing. So I didn't just want to gloss over that.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 23:30
Yes. People say that. “This is the first time I felt heard. I felt listened to. It's the first time I have hope.” And what a blessing it is, right, Jill?
Dr. Jill 23:40
It is. It's like the joy of why I go to work. And hopefully, for those listening, you've either experienced this or you're about to. There's no more powerful healing than truly feeling understood.
Dr. Jill 23:55
So we talked about how they come. You're doing the terrain. There's something that you've shared and it's so powerful—the pre-tox. Let's talk a little bit about what that term means. And how do you go about doing a pre-tox?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 24:09
Yes. Just like we need to prepare the patient for treating chronic infections, I'm also at the same time preparing them for detoxification. Sometimes we use substances when it's appropriate to pull toxins outside of the cells—chemicals, pesticides, glyphosate, and mycotoxins. They bioaccumulate in our fat cells and metals bioaccumulate in the cells of our organs. Lead likes to bioaccumulate in the bones. We can use certain medications to pull the toxins out of the cells so that we can flush them out of our body through the organs of elimination—the liver, kidneys, the gut, and the skin.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 24:59
Before we start to do a cellular detox, we want to make sure that those organs of elimination are prepared and ready to handle a load. Also, I want to clear up toxins that could be floating around in the blood because they do. I'm setting the terrain, giving herbs to support the organs of elimination, and looking at what toxins might be floating around the blood or the urine. If there are toxins floating around at a certain level, then I think there's an acute exposure. I want to find out what that acute exposure is and stop that before we even start to do a cellular detox. We could do a cellular detox until the cows come home, but if they've gotten acute exposure, it's not going to work. They're going to keep getting exposed. So it's [about] understanding what's happening in their system—in their organs specifically—before we can start to pull the toxins out.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 26:00
A lot of people might have chronic UTIs. That's not the right time to detoxify them. I want to pre-tox them by supporting the genitourinary system, if that's an issue. A lot of people have mast cell activation syndrome. I want to calm down the immune system because I know when I start to detoxify them, their bodies are going to respond poorly to two things—to the toxins as we pull them out of the cells, but also to a lot of the herbs or medications we might give to help with detox. So it's [about] working on the person system by system—exploring system by system and working on it systematically like that—then preparing them for detox.
Dr. Jill 26:46
It's so helpful. What are some of the things that people could do at home, maybe before? Maybe they have a practitioner like you or me out there. When I think of sauna or Epsom salt baths… I always learn from my naturopathic friends because you guys have so many tools. What are some of the tools that people could practically try and do for pre-tox or gentle detox in their day-to-day lives?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 27:12
Yes. Sweating for sure. But some of our patients have a hard time sweating or have a hard time in the sauna. Maybe because they have mast activation syndrome, the heat is too much for them, or the sauna mobilizes too many toxins. So you also probably tell them: “Just start for 10-15 minutes if you can't handle that.”
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 27:32
One of the things I want to make sure of is that the patient isn't constipated. A lot of patients come to us with constipation. If simple things to do to help with constipation—you want to talk to us, for sure—like some magnesium, some more fiber or more water are not helping, then we need to explore that more. But usually, people can help themselves with their constipation if they're not too sick at first. Eating an organic diet and having clean green products—personal products or makeup—are good first steps.
Dr. Jill 28:12
I love that—the clean air, clean water, and clean food, which are so foundational to any sort of pre-tox or detox. Let's talk just briefly. We mentioned long COVID. Unfortunately, because it affected so many millions of people, I've seen statistics of up to one in five, maybe higher, affected. How do you see post-COVID affecting people with chronic complex illness? Give us a little framework of that.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 28:35
Yes. What's very interesting is that [with] our patients—prior to the pandemic and during the pandemic—we thought: “Oh no! Our patients are so sick. They've already got complex chronic illness. They're going to end up with long COVID.” And I'm sure this happened with you too: Your patients did not end up with long COVID because we were already pressing on the multitude of infections. We were already detoxifying them. We were already working on the inflammatory pathways in these patients. So along comes COVID and they're okay. They do just fine.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 29:14
It's the people who were not our patients prior who'd come in and have long COVID. They've never been sick before. Maybe they were tired, tended to catch colds often, or had some digestive issues. But nothing major. They could go along with their lives just fine, but they had this low-grade inflammation. And maybe their immune system was keeping a lot of viruses or other infections at bay. Their immune system could handle it. But then comes spike protein. Then comes microclots from long COVID. Then comes the inflammatory cytokine flare. And suddenly, there's inflammation in the blood vessels from the microclots. Suddenly, there's spike protein, possibly in the blood vessels and the organs. We can't measure for it yet—not specifically—but we can look at some markers that give us an idea, and there's inflammation. And infections that were dormant are suddenly at the surface. They're suddenly awake.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 30:17
Suddenly, a person is in chronic Lyme. They didn't even know they got bit by a tick, but they've got the symptoms. It makes me want to test, so I do. And I find that. I find tick-borne diseases. I find HHV-6. I find mycoplasma. I find Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus—it's not usually an ‘or,' it's an ‘and' all of these bugs. And then we look for the toxins. And yes, the toxins were there. But their immune system could handle it. Now suddenly, they can't. And that's long COVID in our patient population.
Dr. Jill 30:53
That's a great framework. I always think of it as a load. We've talked about toxic load before, and it's like one more thing that breaks the straw that breaks the camel's back. Often, for people who were going along okay, it was just this one more thing or one more episode. And the severity of COVID doesn't really determine [the severity of long COVID]. I've probably seen more patients who are suffering after a mild case of COVID than some of the early, really severe cases. So it doesn't necessarily go along with how severe your COVID was.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 31:22
Right. As we're speaking, I'm thinking about something that Dr. Robert Naviaux shared with Dr. Eric Gordon and me recently—how complex chronic illnesses are about the person's own expression of illness. Here we are talking about these chronic illnesses and the secondary illnesses that result from a bunch of primary root causes. We meet with him often and we're very close to him. Something he said recently really, really stuck with me. He said that in almost all of these acquired complex chronic illnesses—chronic Lyme, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, mast cell activation syndrome—there's no one gene responsible for the same diagnosis in different people. He said that it's hundreds of different genes and hundreds of different biochemical variables acting in a coordinated fashion that make somebody arrive at these diagnoses. And they're different for each person.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 32:32
He was looking at different metabolites. Basically, he was looking at people with the same diagnosis and their different abnormal metabolites. He found that 25% of the chemicals were the same in people with the same diagnosis. The other 75% of the chemicals were different; they were unique to each person. Really, by the time someone has a complex chronic illness, the illness has become their own shtick—their own expression.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 33:04
Going back to treatment, the treatment is about personalization. I know you do this; I do this. We talked about: How do we first start? We start with making the person feel safe. We start with immune modulation and nervous system regulation. At the same time, we also know that we're looking at somebody whose expression is totally different from the patient we just saw and the patient we're about to see, even though they have the same diagnosis. So we've got to make it so personalized.
Dr. Jill 33:36
I love that we're wrapping in this direction because that is such a core. I'll just go off for just a moment. A lot of times on social media, people who maybe don't have a medical degree are promoting out there: “Hey, here's this protocol!” Spend this large amount of money to do this protocol because “it'll fix everyone!” I'll just warn you if you're a listener out there—and comment if you've seen this or heard this or even been susceptible to it—if someone says there's a one-size-fits-all, it costs this much money, and “we'll fix you” and everybody does the same thing, you and I know, Dr. Nafysa, that that does not work. And that does not really get to the root cause.
Dr. Jill 34:11
It's funny because even in my work as a teacher and educator—the same as you—often, I ask to give protocols. I'm always like: “There's no protocol! There's no protocol. The core of this work is very, very personalized.” Yes, habits like clean air, clean water, and clean food can be for all of us. But as far as really getting well, this absolutely requires a unique and personalized approach. And I love that you mentioned and emphasized that.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 34:40
When our new Patient Coordinator first started that role, she would say to me: “I've got a new patient calling in. They're wondering if you do the CIRS protocol.” For those of you listening who don't know, it's Dr. Shoemaker's mold protocol. Or, “Do you do the ILADS protocol?” And I told her: “Rachel, tell them that we have our own protocols and they're unique for each individual.” No, I don't do that protocol because it's not going to work for our patients. For some people, these things will work, but we're talking about a different patient population. They've tried that. The illness has become so personalized. It's been going on for so long—at least six months—that you can't just throw a protocol on it anymore.
Dr. Jill 35:24
Yes. I love that we're talking about this. What's sad for me—you and I see this all the time out there—are these promises. I look, just see, and I'm like: “I hope no one falls for that because that is not going to work.” And it doesn't mean you can't get started on your own. It doesn't mean you can't learn. I'm not saying you have to pay for an expensive doctor. But I'm just saying: Be cautious. There's no one-size-fits-all. There just isn't in this complex chronic [illness] world.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 35:47
No. I'm so happy you're saying this.
Dr. Jill 35:49
Yes, you too. It's so important. I get a little upset when I feel people are being misled because I have this heart for the patient who's suffering and wants a fix and a protocol. But the truth is, that's not going to work.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 36:02
No. It upsets me too, it really does, when people are given this promise: “Follow the protocol”—this mold protocol, this gut protocol, or this mast cell protocol—”and you're going to come out the other end.” They do. Then they end up at our doors. They've wasted money.
Dr. Jill 36:21
Right. Well, you have seen amazing reversals and people getting well. So in the last minute or two here, what kind of hope, inspiration, or encouragement would you like to give our listeners if they are facing complex and chronic illness?
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 36:38
There are doctors out there like Dr. Jill, like myself, who are here for you and who have a lot of experience in this. It does take a lot of experience. I know there are other doctors out there who may not have the experience but who want to be able to treat complex chronic illness. Bless their hearts. I'm happy they're trying. But you need a lot of mentorship, a lot of training, and a lot of experience. The hope is that there are doctors like us.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 37:18
In fact, we're both on the board of ISEAI, the International Society of Environmentally Acquired Illness. I can tell you that all the other doctors who are on that board have a lot of experience. You can trust them as well. And there are doctors who are trained through ILADS and ISEAI. That's where you want to find your doctors who've got the experience and the appropriate training. Dr. Jill and I turn patients around every day, all the time. It's what we live for. I know it's what you live for. It's what I live for. It's our life's work. So, we're here for you.
Dr. Jill 37:52
Yes, thank you for saying that. Thanks for mentioning ISEAI. We both love that organization. They do a great job training. It's nonprofit so we're just saying that for the benefit of the listeners.
Dr. Jill 38:01
You've got this summit coming up. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to come on. As you're hearing this, it should be out in the next week or two. You can sign up. It's all free. Tell us the name again. And then, wherever you're watching or listening to this, there will be a link below. You can check that out and get all this great information. Tell us just a little preview of what you've got coming.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 38:20
Sure. It's called Cracking the Chronic Code: Ticks, Toxins & Mold. It's all about complex chronic illness. It is so much more than ticks, toxins, and mold. As you heard Dr. Jill and I speak today, we talk about all the different possibilities that lead towards a diagnosis but also to treatment. We've got a lot of cutting-edge answers and ideas out there for you to join us with. So come and join us. It'll be great!
Dr. Jill 38:51
Fantastic! Again, the link will be below or wherever you're watching this. If you need transcripts or full links, you can find all of my episodes on my website at JillCarnahan.com. You can also find all of my episodes with transcripts on my YouTube channel. Just search my name and you'll find that, depending on where you're listening.
Dr. Jill 39:11
Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for the wealth of knowledge and, most of all, the heart and compassion that you bring to the world in the healing space.
Dr. Nafysa Parpia 39:19
Thank you for the same. And thank you for having me here!
![204: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Can our Minds Spontaneously Transform our Health? Bruce Lipton Dr. Jill 00:00 Hey guys, I am so excited to announce that the movie that you've been waiting for, the documentary Doctor/Patient, is now available for rent or purchase at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Check out the trailer here. 00:13 Dr. Jill: When I really knew something was wrong, was when I started having trouble walking up the stairs. I was supposed to be grateful and happy and healing and well and thriving, but I did not feel that way. I was so sick. Like always, I wanted to find an answer, and I had to figure it out. And I had to figure it out to save my own life. So I dove in. 00:38 James Maskell: Jill is the leading voice in biotoxin illness and chronic conditions that are driven by toxicity. 00:43 Bree Argetsinger: Oh my gosh, you're dealing with mold? You have to work with Dr. Jill Carnahan. 00:47 Patient 1: Dr. Jill is the first person that actually began to shed some light on the problem. 00:53 Dr. Jill: What I do is listen to the patient, and we together talk about what else is possible. 00:59 Patient 2: I don't know why I'm crying. 01:02 Patient 3: She saved my life. 01:06 Dr. Jill: The deepest lessons and most profound insights come in the suffering, come in the dark moments. Self-compassion is the healing transition that shifts something inside of us. It's actually the thing that we need most in order to heal. 01:26 Narrator: Doctor/Patient—available now at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Dr. Jill 01:36 Hey, welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Jill. In each episode, we dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research, empowering you with knowledge and wisdom to overcome illness in your journey to optimal health. Dr. Jill 02:02 Hey guys, if you don't already know, if you've been around me at all, you know my movie, Doctor/Patient is now out. You can view it, share it, gift it, or rent it at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Be sure to check it out and then I would love to hear your feedback after you've had a chance to watch it. Dr. Jill 02:19 Today, I am deeply honored to have guest Bruce Lipton here with me. He's a PhD, a cell biologist, a lecturer, and an internationally recognized leader in bridging science and spirit. We were just talking before we came on about how he has been a leader [for] decades before a lot of us in functional/integrative medicine came along. And I am so excited! If you're a doctor listening—and I know I have a lot of audience there—you are in for a treat. If you're a patient, you're also in for a treat. Stay tuned. Dr. Jill 02:47 Bruce was on the faculty of the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and later performed groundbreaking stem cell research at Stanford University. He's a best-selling author of The Biology of Belief—if you haven't read that book, it's a classic now—The Honeymoon Effect, and the co-author with Steve Bhaerman of Spontaneous Evolution. Bruce received his prestigious 2009 Goi Peace Award from Japan in honor of his scientific contribution to world harmony. Bruce, it is a true honor and delight to have you here! Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 03:17 Jill, I am a happy person to be here because this audience that I get a chance to talk to, to me, is a very important audience. These are the cultural creatives that are paving the way for the future that we need to get into very soon because we're facing an evolutionary upheaval at this very moment. Whether you watch the news, surf the web, or even look out your window, the whole planet has experienced chaos at every level of it. People are focusing on the little chaos, like focusing on the trees, without pulling back to see the biggest thing that's happening and nobody's saying the words. NASA—Let me just say NASA's words. NASA has recognized that within the next 20 years, civilization is facing—and this is my emphasis here—an irreversible collapse. The reason is so mathematically simple. Let me give the math. Dr. Jill 04:16 Sure. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 04:17 Science has recognized that to continue living just the way we're living—just say, let's every day live the way we're living today on this planet—it takes 1.6 planet Earths to provide the resources for today's civilization. The simple math is this: There's one Earth subtracted from 1.6, and we're recognizing: "Where the hell are we getting the extra points?" Dr. Jill 04:39 We're in a deficit. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 04:40 And that deficit is leading to the destruction of the web of life. We have to also recognize this: Even though the Bible is giving us some fanciful story that nature was created and then humans were added on top of nature—no, we evolved from nature. We are nature. If nature goes down, humans go down, because we are part of this web of life. Our separation in our consciousness [that causes us to believe] that we can dominate nature, I say, "How's that working?" I say, "We're facing an extinction." That's a biological reality at this moment. It's called a mass extinction. It happened five times in the history of this planet: Life was thriving, [then] mass extinction. It knocked it all out and then it started again. We are there because of our behavior. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 05:33 And I say, "Our behavior is based on our consciousness." I go: "Okay, wait a second. Is that New Age?" I go: "No, let's stop. No New Age here at this moment." [In] 1927—day one, quantum physics—Max Planck, the founding father of quantum physics, states: "The mind is the creator of our life experiences." Quantum physics—the most valid of all the sciences today in the sense of its predictions and accuracy. Quantum physics. And it's still the belief in quantum physics: Consciousness is controlling this. And I go: "So if consciousness is controlling this, then why are we in such a mess?" The answer is: We have been programmed, and the programming has disempowered us all. It has disempowered us as patients. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 06:28 I go: "I'll give you a program that disempowers you right now." I say, "What is it?" "It's called genetic determinism." That was what I was teaching in medical school: Genes control the character of life. I go: "Did we pick the genes as far as we know? No. But if we don't like the characters we have, can we change the genes? No, can't do that." And then let's just add a little tidbit: Genes turn on and off by themselves. And I say: "You put those together and what have you done? You have told the patients that their lives are not in their control, they're controlled by their heredity, and that they're victims of heredity. Which is victims of what? Genetics. And what does a person know about genetics? Nothing. Who does know something? The doctor. Aha! The program is: When it comes to health, people do not trust themselves." They say: "I need an expert opinion. I'm not knowledgeable." They accept the truth from somebody else. Dr. Jill 07:28 I so love the direction that you're going here because, as a physician, one of the most important things I can do is empower the patient and make sure that they don't think that I am the end-all-be-all. [I want them to know] that we are collaborating and that I listen to them, and I say: "How do you feel about this treatment plan? Where do you want to go?" Granted, if I have wisdom, I can give them that information, but they still get to make that decision. But so many patients are outsourcing that wisdom to someone. Or, at least paternalistically and historically, that has been the way. And what we need to do is take control of our own health. Dr. Jill 08:00 How many patients have gone through a loved one with breast cancer—I'm a breast cancer survivor, so I can speak on this—and they're told, "You have the BRCA gene and you need to have a bilateral mastectomy"? I'm going to be strong about this because I disagree. That's an action out of fear. To each his own, so if you've been out there and have done something based on your genetics, there's no judgment here. But what we're saying is that you actually have control over the expression of those genes. So why don't you go into epigenetics for those who don't know what that means and tell us a little primer on epigenetics and why we have more control than we think? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 08:34 Okay. The most important thing—and this is all scientific, so this is not any new age BS here, folks, this is science—I say: "What is it?" The belief that genes turn on and off is a completely false statement because a gene is a blueprint to make a protein. The proteins are the building blocks. Proteins wear out; you have to replace them. So you have to have a blueprint. It's called a gene. I go, "It's a blueprint!" I go, "Why is that relevant?" I say: "Go to an architect's office. She's working on a blueprint. You ask her, 'Hey, is your blueprint on or off?' She would look at you like, 'What are you talking about? There's no on and off to a blueprint.'" I go: "Aha! Aha! A gene is a blueprint. What you want to find out is: Who's the architect who reads the blueprint? The blueprint does not read itself. There's an architect." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 09:24 I saw this in my research in 1967. None of you were probably old enough to know what I'm talking about—1967! But I was cloning stem cells. Let's give the real name of a stem cell: An embryonic cell. It's an embryo's cell. It replaces things that are broken and gets a new one. I go: "So what? I clone the stem cell." I say, "What's that?" I say: "You put one stem cell in the culture dish. And then what? It divides every 10 or 12 hours." So first there's one, then there's 2, then there's 4, 8, and 16. A week later, [there are] 30,000 cells in the petri dish. What's the most important fact? They all came from one parent. I have 30,000 genetically identical cells. I split them into three petri dishes—one, two, three. Each dish has 10,000, 10,000, 10,000, all genetically the same. We grow cells in a culture medium. Ah, this is going to be the tricky part, for when you get this, the world changes. I'm going to come back to it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 10:27 I say: "A culture medium is what the cells grow in in the lab. And I make it up by putting the chemistry or culture medium. Since I'm creating it, I can change some of the constituents. So I make three different versions of culture medium, A, B, and C." So I say, "So what?" Each one represents a different environment because the cells live in a culture medium. So I say: "Okay, dish one, environment A—the cells form muscle. Dish two, environment B—the cells form bone. Dish three, environment C—the cells form fat cells." I'm doing this experiment. I'm teaching genetic determinism, and I'm watching the cells and going— Dr. Jill 11:10 Wait a second. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 11:11 —"Wait a second, who controlled the activity?" They were all genetically the same. What was different? The environment. The chemistry of the environment selected the genes. The genes did not select themselves. Then, all of a sudden, I said, "Why is this important?" It's a revolution! I'll tell you why. Genetic determinism: Victim. The new science, epigenetics, which I'll explain: Master. Why? Because you control the environment. It's the environment that controls the cells. It's called epigenetics. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 11:48 [There's a] simple reason why the name [is what it is]. What do we call skin? Epidermis. Why? What's under the skin? A layer called dermis. What's the skin above the dermis? Epidermis. Epi: Above. Epigenetics: Control above the genes. I go, "Whoa, the control is not in the genes." I said: "No, it's to control the environment that the genes live in." I go, "Well, wait, I control the environment." Aha! If you control the environment, then you control the genetics. And that's all of a sudden where the new science comes in. The genetic determinism: Victim. Epigenetics: Master. You control your genes. So basically, what I saw back in 1967 was, "The genes didn't make this decision." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 12:48 Now let's just jump ahead a second here because that's a basic science. And then I'm going to give you this, which you're totally aware of: You are a skin-covered petri dish. You have 50 trillion cells under your skin and you have the original culture medium. What is a culture medium? I didn't say it before, but I'll tell you where it is: A laboratory version of blood. When I grow human cells, I concoct a culture medium based on the constituents of human blood or mouse blood, depending on which cells I'm growing. What's the point? You are a skin-covered culture dish with what? The original culture medium. You have the blood. The blood carries the chemistry, which activates the genes. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 13:34 So the first point: Scientifically, it doesn't make a difference if the cell is in a plastic dish or a skin dish? I said, "No, it's the environment." And I say the environment in your body is the blood for the cells. Then come two questions that blow the game into a new evolution. Question number one: What controls the chemistry of the blood? The answer is the brain. It's the chemist. The big one—here it is, hold on: What chemistry should the brain put into the blood? You know what it is? Whatever picture you hold in your mind, the brain translates the picture into complimentary chemistry that matches the picture. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 14:25 I say, "So why is this important?" The picture in your head becomes material in your body. You manifest what you're thinking. I go: "Wait a minute. Would I manifest this life? Would I manifest my cancer?" I go, "Yes." I go, "You say that so affirmatively." I go: "Quantum physics—the most valid science principle number one [is that] the mind is the creator of our experience." I go: "Well, epigenetics is the biological component of that physics mechanism." Epigenetics is how the mind adjusts the genetics of the body. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 15:05 And I go, "We're facing a healthcare crisis on this planet." I go, "Yes, we are facing a healthcare crisis." And I go, "What's responsible?" We put all the money into science. You know what we're looking for? We're looking for the gene—the gene that controls that problem. Guess what? Less than 1% of all diseases on this planet have any connection with genes. Wait, then that means only less than 1% of what we diagnose as disease is connected with genes. I go, "Yes, that's a fact." Then what is really contributing to the worldwide crisis in healthcare? The answer is: Stress is 90% the cause of disease, minimum. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 15:54 I go: "Okay, come on! How could that do that?" Let's give the biology because it's not New Age again. You're ready? When you're in stress, you're in threat. When you're in threat, you engage a protection response. I say, "What is a protection response?" The protection response is: When you perceive stress, you will release stress hormones, adrenal hormones. I go, "Yes, so what?" Well, what do you think the adrenal hormones do? They prepare the body for fight or flight. I go, "So what?" I say: "First of all, there are three stages to take a body from health, happiness, joy—I'm in the garden, I love my life—to 'Ah! A sabertooth tiger's chasing me!'" I say, "So I have to switch from growth, boom, into protection." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 16:41 How does that happen? Three steps. Number one, stress hormones cause the blood vessels in the gut to constrict. Why? Because most of the blood is in the gut. I say, "Who cares?" I say: "Ah, but the blood is a source of energy. So if you need energy, you need blood." So I say, "So what's the point?" I say: "Most of the blood is in the gut, taking care of the body, cleaning, fixing, repairing, nourishing, and doing all those things. But the moment stress hormones come in, the blood vessels squeeze shut. People feel it in the body." "It's queasy. I feel very queasy when I'm in fear like this." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 17:16 I say: "But some people say butterflies in the stomach. Why?" The fluttering of the blood vessels shutting down—you can feel it. And it's a fluttering. And what's happening? The blood is being pushed to the arms and legs, and that's where I need to run away from that damn tiger. So number one, redistribute the blood. Where do I take it from? [From] growth and maintenance to protection. So I'm not funding growth and maintenance when I'm running from the tiger. I go, "No, you're not." Number two, the immune system is to protect me on the inside. If I'm being chased by a saber-toothed tiger, then what's the value of the immune system? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 17:55 I'll give you a scenario. Come on, doctors, listen to this. The patient's got a bacterial infection. They're going to have a real bad case of diarrhea coming up here and they're being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. How would you split the energy of the body? How much to support the immune system and how much of that energy to run away from the saber-toothed tiger? I'll give you a second. Okay, thank you. The answer is, of course, who cares about the immune system? If the tiger chased you, the bacteria are not your problem anymore, that's for sure. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 18:26 Listen, stress hormones shut down the immune system to conserve energy. And you know damn well that when people are sick, sometimes they don't even have the energy to get out of bed because the immune system uses a hell of a lot of energy. If you're being chased by a tiger: I can't support the immune system because if the tiger gets me, who cares about what's happening in the interior?—it's not mine anymore. It's so important—in fact, therapeutic—that when they transplant an organ from person A into person B and they don't want immunological rejection, they give the recipient stress hormones before the operation. That restricts the function of the immune system so it doesn't immediately reject the foreign graft. Ah, so stress hormones are used therapeutically to shut off the immune system. So I say, "Yes, what do you think stress does automatically?" That's number two. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 19:21 Number three, conscious processing is slow compared to reflex behavior. Conscious [processing] is like, "Oh, let me think." Reflex is boom! Boom! Like that. The point is, if you're running from a saber-toothed tiger, conscious processing is going to delay your nervous system because you'll be thinking. When that tiger is coming, guess what? Remember the role of the stress hormone—to squeeze the blood vessels here? They squeeze the blood vessels in the forebrain. I say, "Why?" Because it stops the blood flow from going to the conscious mind. Where's it going? The hindbrain—reflex behavior. Result: We become less intelligent in the fear process. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 20:11 So I say: "Let's put these all together. I shut down growth, I shut down the immune system, and I shut off conscious awareness." I go: "When was that system formed?" "Oh, a couple hundred thousand years ago." I say: "What was it responding to?" "The saber-toothed tiger?" I go: "So what was important?" "If you escape that tiger for five minutes or ten minutes, there's no more saber-toothed tiger, no more stress." So it was used for five to ten minutes. Shut it down [for] five to ten minutes; we'll come back later. In today's world—you know the whole thing—every day, every minute, we're in stress. The system was never designed for chronic stress. It shuts down the vitality, health, and maintenance of the body. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 21:01 The stresses of this world are responsible for over 90% of healthcare crises. This is recognized by the American Psychological Society: 95% of visits to doctors' offices [are] stress-related. I was a programmer. And I'm not proud now because, when I programmed, people used to believe in genetic determinism. I go: "No, no. I was wrong. Epigenetics, okay?" But we've been programmed to be victims. Dr. Jill 21:32 Yes. First of all, I think doctors are starting, at least in my realm of functional/integrative—we're talking epigenetics; we're using this. And I just want to share a personal example to bring home what you just shared. It's so important. Many of my listeners know that at 25, I had breast cancer, then Crohn's disease, and then autoimmunity. I'm the poster child. What I remember very clearly is that in my 30s, I got mold-related toxicity. My immune system was terribly trashed and overactive and I was under high stress. I remember one day walking along and realizing: "This stress that is in my body is actually killing me." I had the mentality [of] "beating cancer," "fighting cancer," "fighting this," "fighting that"—fighting, fighting, fighting—which is your saber-toothed tiger [description]. I was in fight or flight. Dr. Jill 22:16 The day I realized that was the day I realized I could also reprogram my immune system through my thoughts. That day I started thinking [up] a new paradigm, thinking about these little yellow minions being my immune system. They were helping escort mold toxicity out of my body without this fight because, [in] fight or flight, there's no healing. And now, today, I'm healed from that and from mold-related illness and all of this. But it's really that moment when I realized I could change my thought process, change the function of my immune system, recover from Crohn's, cancer, and toxic mold, and no longer fight. Dr. Jill 22:53 And the most important message, as you brought home, is that when I'm sitting with a patient, if they're in fear, if they are in fight or flight, and if they are feeling unsafe in their body, there is no amount of pills, supplements, IVs, nutrition, or even good advice that I can give them… Unless they go to that place of unsafeness, that place of fear, that place where they're still somatically running from the tiger. We have to change that, and it starts with this. Dr. Jill 23:22 So I love, love, love that you framed this. And I just want to give you credit because you've been doing this work for decades before anyone else was talking about it. And now we're seeing it. And finally, doctors in my field are starting to acknowledge and talk about it. But even in my field, functional medicine is a lot about supplements, diet, and lifestyle. That's all great. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 23:40 Well, that's environment! Dr. Jill 23:41 Right? Right. Actually, that's the thing I was going to mention too. My specialty is environmental toxicity, so I know the petri dish of how it affects our bodies. But I do believe, as you're saying, that this reprogramming of our mind… Do you have any stories or examples, maybe from your book, of a patient, client, or somebody who has read your book who really took this and changed from there? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 24:03 I've got hundreds and hundreds of letters from people who've written. There were two things about this. Let me express it even in my personal life. I understood this from a scientific point of view. Man, it was in my laboratory, my research. It was repeatable; I could do this all the time. It took 23 years before science caught up with that observation. I [inaudible] a lot of other things in between to conform. And the reality is that our own understanding about our frailty—it's an understanding. And then I give an understanding of, "No, we're very powerful." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 24:42 I was so happy to go and find an audience of doctors and people: "Let me explain how to create the most wonderful life. Here's the science!" And then they'd come to my lecture and they'd look at me and go: "Lipton, your life doesn't look that good for a guy who says you know this." Oh my God, I was caught. You know what it was? Talking the talk, not walking the talk. I knew the science. It was in my head. Did I make it part of my life? No! I say: "So what was the point? I don't care how smart you are; if you don't make a part of your life, it's irrelevant." Totally! Then all of a sudden, when I caught myself going, "Oh, do as I say, not as I do," it's like, "I can't do that!" So I had to say: "Stop lecturing. Start living your life with the principles you are telling other people. Live this now." How long did it take me to change my life? Oh, within a month, my life was completely on a whole different spectrum. And it was like, "Now, of course, I start talking about it again," because it was real. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 25:47 Let me just give a simple understanding, a scientific understanding, and that is this: The mind is not one thing. "Oh, the mind." I go: "No, not the mind. There are two minds. And they're interdependent, but they have different functions." The conscious mind, the latest evolution: The prefrontal cortex, right behind your forehead, [is] the seat of the conscious mind. What's that? The conscious mind is your source, your personal identity, your spiritual place. What else is it? It's creative! That's what makes humans different than all the other animals. We can take ideas, boom, build them, and create in the conscious mind. What about the subconscious mind? Oh, the original one? Hard drive, programs, habits, stored behavior. Thinking? Uh-uh. Just behavior—program. Dr. Jill 26:38 The subconscious has no way to differentiate truth, right? It does whatever you tell it to do. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 26:44 No, well, the subconscious doesn't do what you tell it to do; it does what it tells it to do. The subconscious is the autopilot. I say, yes, the mind works, but you have to understand that when I'm in the conscious mind, that is the creative side. That's the side with wishes, desires, and aspirations. What do you want? Conscious mind. Subconscious mind: Program. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 27:09 I say, "So what's the issue with our life when it comes down to it?" The monkey wrench that blows the whole thing out is that when the conscious mind is thinking, it's not paying attention to the outer world. A thought is inside. When you're present, your conscious mind is looking at the world and engaging the world. Right now, in front of it, I'm engaging it. But if I'm thinking, my conscious mind is no longer looking out; it's looking in because a thought is on the inside. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 27:38 So I say, "Wait, what if I'm driving the car and I have a thought?" And I've got to tell you, in fact: Then you're not driving the car. "What do you mean? No accident or nothing." I say: "Driving is a program. You don't have to think about driving." In fact, most of the time, if you've been driving for a long time, you never think about the details of driving. It's an automatic behavioral program. It plays when you're not paying attention. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 28:02 I go: "Aha! When the conscious mind is thinking, it's not paying attention to the outer world. Why? It's inside." So I say: Walking, driving, talking, doing your job—hey, those are habits. You've been doing it all—whatever [it is]—for a long period of time. You don't have to re-learn it. It's automatic. Do you even have to think about walking? No, you didn't even have to say: "Oh, I'm going to walk from here to there. I'm going to get that." I say: "Walking is automatic. You don't think about it—program." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 28:37 So then comes the number and this is scientific: Ninety-five percent of the day is the average person's amount of thinking. Then what does that represent? Biologically, only five percent of the day are you creating your life with the conscious mind's wishes and desires. Ninety-five percent of the day your life is coming from programs that you downloaded mainly before age seven. And I go, "Where did I get the programs?" I go: "Before age seven, your brain is not primarily functioning at the level of consciousness, which in EEG terms is alpha, beta, and gamma. When you're under seven, you're operating primarily at theta, which is just below consciousness." Theta—imagination. Hey, the tea party: Pour nothing into the cup. Drink the nothing. "The best tea I ever had in my life!" That's imagination. That's theta. That's what kids do all the time. They can have imaginary friends. They play with them all the time. It's imagination. Theta is hypnosis. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 29:41 I go, "Why is that important?" How many rules does it take to be a member of a family? How many rules does it take to be a member of a community? Now we're talking thousands. I go, "Why is that important?" I said, "Well, teach an infant a thousand rules." I go: "They can't read a book. They can't sit in a classroom. They can't understand a video." I said: "How are they going to learn?" Nature took care of that. Nature gave the first seven years theta, which is hypnosis. You want to know the behavior? Watch your mother, watch your father, watch your community. Watch their behavior; download it. Now it's your behavior! Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 30:19 So the behavior that's in your subconscious mind didn't even come from you, did it? Nope, it came from other people. And did they answer your wishes and desires—what you'd like? Not necessarily. So then, are there programs in there that give you what your wishes and desires are? Not necessarily, no. In fact, I say, "So what about these programs?" Sixty percent of the things you downloaded as a kid—sixty percent of the subconscious programs [are] disempowering, self-sabotaging, and limiting beliefs. And you operate ninety-five percent of the day from them. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 30:53 Ah, but here's the monkey wrench you didn't catch! Why am I using my subconscious programs? Because my conscious mind's not paying attention; it's thinking. Well, then, do you see the programs when they come out? I go: "Nope! You're the only one who doesn't even see the program!" Why? Everybody else around you is responding to your program. You're not even paying attention [to] what the hell is coming out. Sixty percent of it [is] disempowering yourself. So the issue is this: We are not controlling our lives. Our program controls our lives. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 31:28 I say, "Oh, this is a new science." I go: "Scientifically, this is valid. This is understanding theta activity, downloading programs, conscious, subconscious, blah, blah, blah, blah." But the Jesuits knew about programming for 400 years. They would tell their followers, "Give me a child until it is seven, and I will show you the man." Oh my God, that's 100% right! The programming is before age seven, and 95% of the life is the program. They knew it. They created Catholic schools to help the programming go along. And that idea is never lost because if you can watch an infant today, which I've seen carrying an iPad, interacting with a program on a computer, that's far better programming than Jesuits could ever have thought of. Dr. Jill 32:17 Yes, it's clear, isn't it? That's a really good transition because one of the things I see as the biggest crisis in healthcare is environment, but it's environment that is no longer socially interactive or present. We're numbing ourselves out with machines, with iPads, and with phones. They are designed to create an addictive behavior, so they're tapping into some of those subconscious programs, right? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 32:40 And let me just add this to that: It's not just that behavior, but it's also creating disempowering behaviors. So these programs—as you were just going to say, and I'll let you have it back again—were not designed to help us; they were designed to control us. Dr. Jill 33:05 Yes. And sell and control. Yes, so we are pawns in this new world of technology that is neurodynamically designed to be addictive. If you haven't seen The Social Dilemma, that's a great place to start in your education on social media and the impact. I do want to talk about this. One of the things you just got done saying is that before seven, we're programmed. I totally understand and believe that. But the truth is, we have the power to change that programming. Tell us about that. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 33:36 Most everybody out there has changed that programming. I say, "You've already done it." I say: "What, the movie The Matrix, being a documentary, everybody's programmed?" Yes, of course, that's the foundational belief of the movie and the reality. And in the movie, they offered the red pill. And I say: "What was the red pill? You get out of the program!" Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 33:54 I go, "Almost everybody out here right now listening has done that." I say: "What was the consequence? How did it happen?" I'm going to tell you. Falling in love is a red pill. I go, "What do you mean?" Because when you first fall in love, you stop thinking. Biologically, you stay present; you stay in the conscious, creative mind. You've waited for this person your whole life. They're there. What, you want to start thinking and then ignore them? Are you kidding me? You stay up conscious. You stay mindful. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 34:23 I say, "So what happened?" I say: "Your life up to meeting that person: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You meet them [and] 24 hours later: 'Oh, man, life is beautiful. Life is so wonderful. Hey, the food's really good. That music is even better than I ever thought it was.'" And even the crappy job is not so crappy. I said: "What'd you do?" You made honeymoon. What's honeymoon? Heaven on earth. I said, "What was your heaven on earth?" Whatever you wished and desired. You and a partner coming together when you're both wishing and desiring, you're sharing the same wishes and desires, you manifest a honeymoon. Oops, I dropped something, but okay. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 35:01 Is the honeymoon already there? I go, "The honeymoon's always there." I said, "Then how come you don't have it?" Because when you start thinking, you then go back to subconscious control, the default. And the problem is, why do 50% of marriages end up in divorce? The answer is this: Marriage has started with the relationship of two conscious creative minds sharing together a belief in creating a honeymoon, and it ends when thinking enters into the people and they start playing their regular programs, which are 60% negative. The partner hears these programs. The one saying the thing doesn't hear it; the other one hears it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 35:43 I love the response. When somebody comes out in a relationship and the loving partner hears some kind of BS come out of their other partner, they look at them and go: "Who are you? Where did you come from?" What? It was never part of the behavior. And then, all of a sudden, it shows up. And the more thinking, the more that negativity shows up. There's a point where a partner will say: "That's enough. That's not why I signed up here. I signed up because we had a great honeymoon." After you started thinking, this thing went right down the tube. The point is, that's what reality is about. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 36:18 So the idea then becomes simple, which is the obvious thing: "What if I created all programs that represented my wishes and desires—if I had those programs?" I said: "Oh, you know what? Whether you're consciously creating those wishes and desires or your conscious mind is off in left field, your subconscious will be manifesting the wishes and desires. And guess what? A honeymoon is not a short period. A honeymoon is every day of your life for as long as you live." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 36:46 Does it work? Personally, I had some very bad programming when I was young because my mother and father had a dysfunctional relationship. I downloaded my father's dysfunctional behavior. I played it when I couldn't see it. The result is that I couldn't get relationships off the ground. Then I understood the nature of the programming. Then I understand the nature of reprogramming. Around 50, I met my partner, Margaret. We just celebrated 28 years! And I'm not selling just a relationship; I'm talking honeymoon for 28 years. To wake up every day in my life and go: "Oh my God, I'm still here. Oh my God, I have another day to smell the roses, to have a piece of cake, to enjoy the love, watch the environment, and love my life." I celebrate life. Jill celebrates life. What's the result? Where's the illness? What illness? Dr. Jill 37:45 Yes! I love that. There are some points that I think are so crucial that you just made, number one, being present with our partners, watching them in real time and observing them. So often we create a program of them, a template, and then we don't expect them to change. Or, we expect them to behave the same. And when we're in real time, present with another person—whether it's a friend, family member, business associate, or lover—we can respond in real time. And that's part of that co-creation that you're talking about. It's crucial. Dr. Jill 38:15 The other thing is that with illness, I find one thing that was—I'm sure this is related to the program, [and] I'd love your comments—I never identified with the cancer. I never became the cancer. I never made that part of who I was. Even now, I'm like, "Oh yes, 20 years ago, I had cancer." And of course, it's real, but it's almost foreign because it was never part of me. And I really believe that's a huge part of why I overcame a very, very aggressive cancer at the age of 25—because it never was my identity. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 38:44 Yes, let's just talk about this. The first thing is that I'm going to give a fact of science [to] which [a person might say], "He really said that?" And I'm going to say, yes, I'm going to say this. There's not one gene that causes cancer. There's not a gene [where], "You have this gene, you get cancer." The one scary one for women, of course, [is] the breast cancer gene. I go, "So what?" I go: "Women who carry the breast cancer gene don't necessarily have to have cancer. As a matter of fact, nearly half of them don't get cancer. But they have the gene." So then I say, "Then where did the cancer come from?"—because those who have the cancer with the gene and those who are healthy with the gene have the same gene. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 39:20 What's the difference? The answer is this: Cancer is correlated with a gene, not caused by a gene. Cancer is caused by disharmony in the system. Disharmony is the source of disease. Harmony is the source of health. Disharmony means your programming wasn't really good, and you're responding to things in a negative way that is going to cause a breakdown of the system. That's where the stress comes into it. So the concept is this: The image—even if once you tell a woman, "Yes, you have the breast cancer gene," what the hell image do you think is going to be in her head? The answer is: Cancer. I go: "Yes, but isn't the function of the mind to take the image of the head and turn it into reality?" I go, "Absolutely! What's the consequence?" Ninety percent of cancer has no genetic linkage at all. Dr. Jill 40:14 Yes. That was the biggest question I got as a 25-year-old. Every single person, to a T: "Oh, did you have genes?" No, I didn't have genes. I had a dysfunctional system when I was in my 20s. That goes into a whole other lecture that I could give, but I was not living consciously. And there were some things, stress-wise, that were contributing. And it was the environmental toxic load. So all of these things are the petri dish. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 40:38 And more than that, there must have been the two programs. Eighty to ninety percent of all people will not test positive for two beliefs. Number one, and I think the most important, is the belief, "I love myself." Eighty percent of people will not test positive for that belief. Number two, and this is the one where the healthcare crisis comes from: "I am safe." When you have a picture of fear, then the chemistry of fear is to manifest the fear. When they say "This is it" and [show you] a picture of the tumor and everything, then you make the chemistry of the tumor. Then the idea is that we have to own quantum physics. Consciousness is the source of our life experiences. We have to understand the nature of epigenetics. Consciousness is the source of what controls our genes. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 41:07 The third thing that I think is part of the Renaissance that we really must emphasize at some point is Newtonian physics, which separates physical from non-physical, matter versus energy. It's an illusion. It's not real. But it programs us in a very bad way because the program says: "Whatever is made out of matter can only be affected by matter. Whatever is made out of energy can only be affected by energy." And I say, "So what's the consequence?" I say: "The body is matter. And what do you think the whole foundation of the pharmaceutical company is? The body is matter and we make the matter to fix the matter." Dr. Jill 42:16 Yes. What's the matter with that? [laughs] Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 42:18 Three hundred thousand people die in the US every year from prescription drugs, that's what's the matter with it, when less than 50,000—I think 30,000—people die from illegal drugs. We have a war on illegal drugs, and 300,000 people dying from pharmaceutical drugs is called the cost of doing medicine. I go: "That's damn expensive! We don't need that." Simple law of science: If a drug works, it only works because you already had a receptor for that drug on you. Do you think nature put receptors on cells, waiting for the pharmaceutical company to make a drug? No, come on, man! If you have a receptor for a drug, it's because you have a receptor for a drug that you make. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 43:01 I go, "I can make any drug." Of course, because any drug works because you have a receptor to connect it. If you have a receptor, then you obviously have a signal that will bind to that receptor. Then you say, "Well, it's not working." And that's where everything gets screwed up because that system isn't working and then you go right away: "Oh, the body is defective. The genes aren't working right. There's an interference with the physical." I go, "Yes, there was an interference because it didn't start down here; it started up here." And once you start to understand this, yes, treat the body if there's an immediate need to treat the body, but the process of treating the patient is treating this part. Knowledge is power. They do not have the knowledge of who they are. They're programmed [to think]: "I'm a victim of my genes and I have no power." I go, "Well, there's your problem." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 43:54 And the issue about it is that you guys are in the front of the evolution that says: Okay, I can treat the patient, but I've really got to treat the consciousness of the patient. Why? Because, as quantum physics says, consciousness is the source of this creativity, and as epigenetics says, consciousness is the source of this expression. You cannot leave that out. Dr. Jill 44:18 You just talked about two beliefs that I think are critical and it's a great place to kind of wrap up. The first one is: Do we love ourselves? Do we really, really, truly love and accept ourselves? I have written a book and done a movie on that message. The heart of healing is: How do we show self-compassion and love? Because that is the only way that our cells will respond in health. Dr. Jill 44:41 The second thing was so crucial too, and that is the fear and the unsafety. This is where a physician in the office can make all the difference, because if they add to that fear message, guess what? That's just adding to that patient's unhealth. So one thing we are obligated to do as physicians is create a safe environment and teach that patient how to start to feel safe in their body. With those two beliefs, maybe in the last couple of minutes here, could you maybe give us some practical advice for somebody who's like: "How do I start doing that, Bruce? How do I feel safe in my body? And how do I love myself?" Because that, I couldn't agree more with you, is really the core message here. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 45:19 I'll tell you, let's get right to the root of why people do not love themselves. The answer is: Because parents act like coaches on a sports team. I go, "What does that mean?" A player isn't doing well. What does the coach say? "Oh, do better." No! The coach says: "That's not good enough. Who do you think you are? You don't deserve to be on this team." Well, a player is older than seven. They're in consciousness. They understand that the coach is saying, "You better do better!" Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 45:47 Now let's say the parent is the coach and the kid is under seven. There's no consciousness operating. What's operating? Hypnosis, programming. So when the father says, "That's not good enough, you don't deserve this, you're not lovable, you don't belong," blah, blah, blah—acting like the coach who says, "This is going to make them do better"—if the kid is under seven, you just programmed them to self-sabotage because the subconscious is going to create 95% of their life. And if I get a program "I do not deserve," when I'm thinking 95% of the day, what the hell program is running? "I do not deserve." So I could say something so stupid in my corporate structure or something, and somebody says, "That guy doesn't deserve to be here." And then, all of a sudden, I'm kicked out of the structure. Why? Because I myself made behavior to conform to "not good enough" and to not love myself. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 46:41 This is why that one's so important—because if you can't love yourself, I'm going to be honest, you can't accept love from somebody else. I go, "Why?" Because they say they love you, but in your mind, you're going: "Well, they don't know me, man. I know I'm not lovable." And you'll push them away. And then you'll find yourself with nobody around. And guess what you'll say? "You see?! I'm not lovable!" [inaudible] You just did that. And when it comes to "Do I have any power?" the answer is: No, it has been systematically deprived of them. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 46:59 I've got a minute; I've got to say this because this is really cool. There's a power struggle in the world. It's always been this way. There are three levels of power. Number one, caveman. Who's the biggest badass with the biggest club? Whatever they say, do it. They've got the power. Evolution came along. There are people then who control the resources that you need. And all of a sudden they say, "If you want those resources, you've got to give me something for this." And you know what? The ones who had the resources paid the caveman to hit you over the head if you didn't pay for the resources. Dr. Jill 47:53 A personal hitman. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 47:55 That's the king who owns the resources with an army of cavemen. Then I say, "But the last of the power struggles came down to 'knowledge is power.'" And it was recognized that, yes, that is the supreme power of everything. Knowledge is power. The first thing the church of Rome did was acknowledge: "We are the source of infallible knowledge. We are the source of truth. We say it; it's true." Well, you say, "I don't care." The point about it was that people gave up their power to the belief. And I say it here very quickly: There's a code behind the power brokers. I call it the powermongers' credo. I say, "What is it?" Are you ready? Give them the fear for free and then sell them the antidote. Dr. Jill (pre-recording) 48:46 Hey, everybody. I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected: Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science, and Faith, is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming a life-threatening illness and the tools, tips, tricks, hope, and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein-Barr, and mold- and biotoxin-related illnesses. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by ReadUnexpected.com. There, you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine and finding resilience. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 50:59 "What do you want me to do? Put a mask on? Sure. I'll mask on. I can't visit my mom, who's dying in a nursing home?" "No, you have to give that up because you can't do that." "Really?" Dr. Jill 51:09 Yes. If you're controlled, then fear created the biology of illness. It really, really is a great analogy. Bruce, this has been so fun to dive deep. I love talking to you. I love your enthusiasm. I love your wisdom. And I love most of all that you were so far ahead of the curve because people are kind of coming along to this belief. But the truth is, you were one of the very first ones writing and talking about this. And I'm just grateful that way back in the day, in the lab, you saw this and started writing about it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 51:44 I can't be any happier than I am for myself! I have a different life! I have a different life than before that discovery. Dr. Jill 51:53 Yes. And it transforms us all, too. I have many stories, the same thing, of me continuing to transform because of this knowledge. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for spending your time with us today!](https://www.jillcarnahan.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Bruce-Lipton-Biology-of-Belief-Can-Your-Mind-Spontaneously-Transform-Your-Health_-WEB-1.jpg)
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