In Episode #49, Dr. Jill interviews naturopath, Dr. Christina Bjorndal on Top Tips for supporting mental health and preventing anxiety mood disorders and depression during stressful times.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal: https://drchristinabjorndal.com
More Reading: The Troublesome Trio in Depression
Dr. Jill
Dr. Jill Carnahan is Your Functional Medicine Expert® dually board certified in Family Medicine for ten years and in Integrative Holistic Medicine since 2015. She is the Medical Director of Flatiron Functional Medicine, a widely sought-after practice with a broad range of clinical services including functional medical protocols, nutritional consultations, chiropractic therapy, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, and massage therapy. As a survivor of breast cancer, Crohn’s disease, and toxic mold illness she brings a unique perspective to treating patients in the midst of complex and chronic illness. Her clinic specializes in searching for the underlying triggers that contribute to illness through cutting-edge lab testing and tailoring the intervention to specific needs.
Featured in Shape Magazine, Parade, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, First for Women, Townsend Newsletter, and The Huffington Post as well as seen on NBC News and Health segments with Joan Lunden, Dr. Jill is a media must-have. Her YouTube channel and podcast features live interviews with the healthcare world’s most respected names.
A popular inspirational speaker and prolific writer, she shares her knowledge of hope, health, and healing live on stage and through newsletters, articles, books, and social media posts! People relate to Dr. Jill’s science-backed opinions delivered with authenticity, love and humor. She is known for inspiring her audience to thrive even in the midst of difficulties.
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#49: Dr. Jill Interviews Dr. Christina Bjorndal on Tips for Optimal Mental Health
Dr. Jill 00:13
Dr. Bjorndal—hopefully, I'm saying that right.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 00:16
Yes, you are.
Dr. Jill 00:17
It is great to have you here. As we were saying, we've crossed paths at certain integrative mental health conferences and stuff. And I was so glad that you reached out to get to know you better, because, gosh, of all the times in our lives and worlds, I think people really need tools and options for mental health with the pandemic. I always joke, like, the stressors that raise cortisol are novelty, unpredictability, threat to ego, and sense of control—and we pretty much hit all of those areas. So it's a perfect time to talk about mental health, and I know that people listening are going to be excited.
Dr. Jill 00:55
Before I introduce you, just a little bit of housekeeping, if you're listening. You guys know I'm on here a couple of times a week. It'll be recorded so you can watch it later. And if you haven't gone to my YouTube channel, it's under my name, Jill Carnahan. There are over 40 videos there. If you like these, you can go and watch them for free. I would just love for you to subscribe there and get updates. If you want to know more about me or my free blogs, you can go to my website at JillCarnahan.com or DrJillHealth.com.
Dr. Jill 00:17
So I want to introduce my guest, Dr. Christina. She is an authority on the treatment of mental illnesses such as depression, anxiety, bipolar [disorder], and eating disorders. Having overcome many mental health challenges, Dr. Chris is a gifted speaker and best-selling author who loves to share her philosophy of wellness in interviews. She's been with Jenny McCarthy and many more. She is recognized as one of the top naturopathic doctors, followed by two independent organizations. Dr. Chris has helped many patients achieve physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being. She's written four books on mental health. You can find all of this information, [including] how to work with her and about her books, on her website, which is under her name, Dr. Christina Bjorndal. So welcome, Dr. Christina. It is so good to have you here.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 02:21
Thank you! Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
Dr. Jill 02:25
You're welcome. I always like to start with story because story is why we got into doing what we're doing. And of course, you have your own story, and I'd love to hear more about your journey.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 02:35
Yes. So I haven't always been a naturopathic doctor. Really, just as you said, I have come to become one because of my own struggles with my mental health. That really started in high school, when I developed an eating disorder. I was also this overachieving type. When I got to university, I found myself in this place that I'd never been before, which was really stuck and debilitated with depression and paralyzed by anxiety. In hindsight, I realized that I was burning the candle at both ends. Eventually, when you do that, you're going to run out of candles or gas in the car so to speak. So we weren't talking about burnout and that kind of thing.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 03:19
This is back in the mid-80s. I was prescribed an antidepressant, which I took and a few months later I found myself in another place I'd never been before. I had a psychotic episode—a manic episode. When I came out of that, I was then diagnosed with bipolar disorder type 1. I had a hard time accepting that diagnosis, so I pretty much didn't. I pretty much wore this mask that [said] I'm okay on the outside and was marching through the world that way but not really doing well on the inside. So [there was] a lot of turbulence and a lot of disconnect with what was happening within me and what I was projecting out into the world.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 04:08
I ended up working and I was in the corporate world and the struggle just got harder and harder and wearing that mask got heavier and heavier. I did succumb to a suicide attempt, which was really the turning point for me at that point. When I came out of the coma and was in the position that I was in, I realized, gosh, I had nowhere else to go at that point. So I was given a book to read by Marianne Williamson. It was called A Return to Love. There's a quote on surrender. In the quote, she talks about how we need to learn how to love and accept ourselves, and I realized I didn't.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 04:58
So that's been the journey since then. That was a long time ago now. That was 1994. So for those last 35 years, I've really been working on figuring out: How do I love and accept these parts of myself?—especially that diagnosis. And how do I find better ways to navigate other than just the psychotropic approach? So that's the journey in a nutshell. There are lots of pieces to unpack there, but ultimately I've been through a lot.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 05:33
The book that I've written is called Beyond the Label because I want people to understand that it's a label, and it can be helpful for sure, but we want to really understand what's happening within the person to have them express the set of symptoms that's happening within the vessel that is them.
Dr. Jill 05:54
I love that! I knew we'd get along just great because, first of all, I love your story in bringing awareness. Here we are, two professional women, and I have recently been working on my book as well and writing about my medical education experience. And really, it's abusive in some ways, as far as the hours and the way and even that performance-based achieve… I mean, there are so many layers to it—the workload, the expectations, and putting on the mask.
Dr. Jill 06:23
And what I think that's important—here we are again professionals but anyone listening can understand this—[is that] so often we go out in the workplace, or as a mother or a wife, we put on this mask and “have it all together.” And the truth is, we're all humans, and we all struggle and we all, on different levels, have these emotions. This is what it is to be human. And I love that you're bringing awareness and I want to do the same: We're all in this together and I've struggled too. But the journey is common to all humans, and when we start to put a mask on them, we are separating ourselves from the connection that can actually help to heal us.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 06:56
Exactly. That's beautifully said. Exactly. And gosh, I would have loved to have gone the medical doctor route. Mind you, I went back to school when I was 33 to go back to high school to get the science prerequisites to go on to naturopathic school. But I also felt like the rigorousness of that, with the sleep deprivation and the level of demands—I wasn't sure that I would actually be healthy. It wouldn't be a healthy approach. So I opted not to do it that way.
Dr. Jill 07:26
You were probably right because, as I write about it, I'm like, “Holy cow!” I look back and I dissociated; I suppressed some of it. Now I'm actually dealing with all that. But I'm like, “Wow, that was really traumatic!” And that's common; it's not unique to me. Most allopathic doctors went through a lot of that, whether it was hours regulation or… And the biggest thing that I was trying to write about was how, especially as professionals or if we're caring for patients, I think that there's this idea that we have to come [up] with all the answers and that we're all perfectly put together. I've seen this in other circles too; it's not just doctors. And the truth is, the more we embrace our authentic humanity and our own failures, shortcomings, and emotions, the more we can actually really show up for the patients.
Dr. Jill 08:09
So what you've done is dive into this journey and find healing for yourself. And I love going beyond the label because we're both taught to get a diagnosis and that's the end story. An ICD-10 now—a code that says you have celiac disease, depression, or whatever label. And that label is the end game, and then you have a drug that treats that label. Well, guess what? What we're going to go into today is that the label is only the start. And yes, it gives us a framework to say you're kind of in this framework but it's not an identity. It doesn't define you.
Dr. Jill 08:41
The other piece about it, for both of us—what we do in medicine—is: Why did that happen? [We're] asking the questions and then trying to navigate: How can we reverse that label that you've been given? So talk just a little bit about [that] because I love the theme of your book. And tell me more about what you go into in that, because that makes a lot of sense to me.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 08:58
Yes, exactly. So it really is a framework. One of the really differentiating factors we want to keep at the forefront of our minds is that we're more interested in you as an individual than we are in the disease that has you. And I get that it's important to understand the disease piece of the puzzle but not more so than the individual that has that particular label or condition. So first, [it's about] really stepping back to address that idea of why, understanding that there are four levels to us as human beings. There's the physical, the mental, the emotional, and the spiritual. All four areas are important to take a look at.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 09:40
I started my journey in this world toward this idea of healing on the physical level. At that time, I was taking five psychotropic medications. Then I went to see a nutritionally-oriented psychiatrist. His name was Dr. Abram Hoffer.
Dr. Jill 10:00
I know him. I love it.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 10:02
Yes. He's very well known in the nutritional world. He started me on many supplements. The interesting thing was that I wasn't doing well when I went to see him. I was quite depressed and I was still feeling a lot of anxiety. I carried both approaches along together at the same time. Then I had my first year where I felt free of these two pieces—the depression and the anxiety—and was stable and hadn't had anything to do with mania for over a decade. So I almost felt like: What was that all about? Was that just a one-off or is that ever going to happen again? And I hadn't had that stability that I'd had in the 15 years prior. So I knew there was something to this approach. But eventually, I ended up bumping up against these other areas—the mental, emotional, and spiritual sides.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 11:02
So just to complete the physical conversation, I just want people to understand that there are essentially three macrosystems within the body—this body, this container, that is you. So you have your neurotransmitters. You have your neuroendocrine, or hormonal system, and then you have your organs of detoxification in your immune system. And mental health symptoms can result in any one of those three, if not all three of them.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 11:24
And it was really telling for me when I started Dr. Hoffer's protocol; I got better for half of the month. I mean, I had no medical knowledge at that time. But now, in hindsight, I realize, “Oh gosh, my hormones were really out of whack too.” And my organs of detoxification certainly weren't working the way they needed to. So everything interacts with each other within a body. But the good news story here is that once you work on one part, it's like a ripple effect and other things start to come online and improve for you. Just know that you can start where it feels comfortable for you, but the key is that we want to get started.
Dr. Jill 12:05
I love that. And I love that you talk about the hormones, the neurotransmitters, and all the interactions—the detox. I've done neurotransmitter, hormone, and thyroid work—all these pieces. But sometimes you go deeper with the detox and then those things kind of balance out. You can't necessarily ignore one or the other. But I feel like the hormones and neurotransmitters can even be at a superficial level compared to the deeper detox work, because when you get that working, sometimes the hormones will start to regulate themselves. How would you approach [things] if a patient came in with depression or anxiety and maybe their own medications? What would be your approach to that patient?
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 12:39
First, one of the key questions is “Why?”, like we talked about. Or, “When did this happen? What was going on at that time?” Because a lot of times it really is about this trauma, experience, or situation that they're having a hard time navigating, often on an emotional level. So we always want to know how severe they are, whether they're in a crisis state, and make sure that we can give the right level of intervention for the degree or depth that they're experiencing. Then we start with the foundation—diet, sleep, exercise—and then that stress management piece, which I think is really big. There are so many pieces with those first three—diet, sleep, and exercise—just on that physical level, on a lifestyle basis, that can shift the dial for us. But when we're not feeling great, the first thing that often goes [wrong] is the diet and the movement, right? We have such a hard time getting ourselves going when we're depressed because of a lack of motivation.
Dr. Jill 13:47
The chicken or egg, right? Because you need to move, and we know that activity is profoundly antidepressive [as well as] good food, but you're stuck in that. I would say it's almost like you're in this pit and you need someone to help you pull yourself out—whether it's a community, a doctor, or someone like you. And I want to go back to the basics too. But the people who are either listening now or have experiences where you're stuck in that place if you feel like you can't get out of bed, where's the starting place to get yourself just enough out of that so you can start doing what you need to do?
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 14:20
Yes. So first, I'll just start off and hopefully, this may help people who are listening. There have been times when it's taken me 2, 4, 6, and sometimes 10 hours just to move from the bed—getting dressed—to the door, put the shoes on, and head out. But never once did I ever come back feeling worse than when I went out. So it's really a matter of leaning in if you can, digging really deep, and shifting within you—from this “I can't” to this “I can,” “I will,” or “I want” mindset. And I get it; it's hard. It is hard. So to make it easier, what I've done recently is I have an accountability person who calls me and that phone rings, and I'm not allowed to say, “I can't do it today.”
Dr. Dr. Jill 15:17
I love it!
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 15:17
So I'm kind of on the hook, in a sense. I know that's not always easy for everyone. But it is something that people don't think about doing. So find somebody that you can perhaps reach out to or ask. The other part is that when you're feeling this way, it really is like asking a deaf person to hear. Asking a depressed person to reach out is really hard. It's like we are physically cut off at the arms. So this is where the support piece is really, really important. So if there is someone in your life—a husband, a partner, a friend, a colleague, a parent, somebody—that knows you… If you have just enough within you to raise your hand and say, “Actually, I do need some help,” because we are so busy wearing the mask, right?
Dr. Jill 16:02
Yes. If anything today, if you're listening, I just want to speak to you who's listening. Maybe some of this is resonating because this is winter—at least here in Colorado—and it's darker so you have the seasonal piece, the lack of sunshine for some people. Just that step of telling someone… because what Dr. Christina and I were both talking about in the beginning was part of what kept us in trouble and training or in our past, was feeling like we had to have it all together and we had to put on a mask and pretend like everything was okay. And we're literally sitting here as professionals, giving you permission to [say that] it's okay to not be okay. If that's all you hear today… It's okay to not be okay, and it's okay to be struggling. All you have to do is tell somebody.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 16:49
That's right. And there's so much power in that, there really is. And a lot of relief can come from that because it's heavy holding up this weight. It is heavy. And I guess that is the message, just to echo what you said—that you actually don't need to hold it up anymore.
Dr. Jill 17:06
Yes. That's why we're here for each other. I think, if anything, this next decade, people are going through transitions. All of us are going through our own journey. But I think we're going deeper than we ever had to go in some cases. And the biggest thing is: How do we show it more authentically?—which sometimes can show up when we're falling apart.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 17:24
That's right. Yes.
Dr. Jill 17:06
So then, you're looking at hormones and neurotransmitters. What else would you do with a person? So again, getting out of bed is huge. Getting some accountability [is helpful]. I love those basic steps. What else?
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 17:38
The other piece then comes back to the diet piece. I know a lot of people think, “Oh, diet”—you know, insert eye-roll kind of thing. But it's really important because for me anyway, when I'm depressed, I'm not eating. In fact, I had one pastor once who asked me if I had an eating disorder, which I had in the past, but I said: “No, this is depression. Like, I don't eat.” So if you think about it, how's your brain going to run? How is your brain going to make neurotransmitters and hormones if you're not eating much? You need fuel for the body.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 18:11
Understand that serotonin, which is the main neurotransmitter that is often discussed when it comes to depression, is derived from an essential amino acid called tryptophan, which you cannot physically make on your own. You have to get it from your diet. And a really eye-opening piece for me was when I went to a second-year nutrition class and we had to analyze our diets as an assignment. Now I had gotten better because I started this supplement protocol that was supporting this pathway in my body—this tryptophan-serotonin pathway. But when I analyzed my diet—and remember, I had an eating disorder so I'd had a lot of cracks in my nutritional foundation—the only essential amino acid I was still deficient in was tryptophan. [It was] really eye-opening for me.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 18:57
So this other little book that I've created is called The Essential Diet: Eating for Mental Health. So understand that there are many essential nutrients for these neurotransmitters and hormones. Dopamine is another one—a really important neurotransmitter—when it comes to addiction. So the point that I'm trying to make is that we want to fuel your body with something that's helpful. I know it's hard when we're not feeling great to do some of these things that I'm asking you to dig deep to do. But the support piece is where this can also help you be successful. So just know that the food piece of the puzzle is a really big, huge piece.
Dr. Jill 19:42
I love that. And you mentioned sleep. Let's talk a little bit about sleep, whether you have anxiety and can't sleep or you're sleeping 15–16 hours a day. How would you address the sleep issues? I feel like that's such a core [piece]—eating and sleeping are really, really core—before we even go into supplementation. So what would you tell your patients about sleep?
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 20:04
Yes. So [there are] different ends of the spectrum. With depression, some people are sleeping too much and some people are more wired. And with the anxiety piece there, they're not sleeping as well. Then, if we go to the other end of the spectrum with mania, people aren't sleeping at all. But I'm going to keep it more within the normal piece of the puzzle here. So sleep and exercise feed on each other. Oftentimes, if you're not burning any energy, you're not going to feel tired. So that's where that movement piece, the fresh air, and getting some vitamin D all sort of help support sleep.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 20:42
What often affects people's sleep is stress. This understanding about the rhythm in the body with the two main hormones that can affect sleep, which are cortisol and melatonin. Cortisol has an inverse relationship with melatonin and inhibits it. So the hours that you spend before bed need to be calming and supportive toward sleep. So this isn't when we want to have big discussions with our partner or this isn't when we want to watch a violent [movie] or get on video games and play really adrenaline-boosting stimulating [games]. We want to be as calm as we can in those hours before bed. And really, [it's about] understanding that the adrenal gland, which is an important gland in the body, has a relationship with cortisol. It produces cortisol and serves a hormonal function. They really like rhythm and routine—going to bed at the same time and getting up at the same time, eating and exercising at the same time. We're not to be robots and so structured and rigid. There is flexibility and fluidity within that. But just this idea of routine is a really important piece to our health too.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 21:53
The other thing I want to say about sleep is the state of mind you're in when you go to sleep. I have spent decades in depression. And I can share with you that I would go to bed every night, literally asking myself not to wake up in the morning. That's not a great way to finish your day. Then I would wake up in the morning—obviously, as I'm still here—and I'd open my eyes and I would be starting mad almost, like: “Ugh, God, not another day!” So how do you imagine my day went? Not very good, right? Not very good. So now the shift and what I'd like people to do if this is a simple place for you to start, is just go to bed with gratitude, even for one thing. There's a lot of neuroplastic research around gratitude alone. Now I go to bed at night grateful for the day that I've had, opening my eyes in the morning, and grateful that I have another day to serve. It's a huge shift—night and day.
Dr. Jill 23:08
Yes. What you're talking about is so critical, but people might just blow right by this mindset. When you're struggling, you're in that pit and you need help with a friend, it's okay to ask for help. It's not like we're saying: A positive attitude is the only thing you need. That's not it. But this is critical. And I love that you're talking about this.
Dr. Jill 23:29
First of all, routines. I feel like my secret superpower is that I'm routined and I have a nightly ritual. Sleep is my superpower. Literally, that is my superpower for performance, so I protect that. If there's a late night for some event, once in a rare while I might do it. Of course, COVID is different right now with all that. But before, I would often say no because I knew that was so precious to have—that sleep and that time. It'd be rare that I'd break that because my performance, mood, and energy were based on great sleep.
Dr. Jill 24:03
So for me—everybody's different—an hour or two before bed, I don't get on the computer. Every night I take an Epsom salt bath, usually with lavender or eucalyptus oil. And with that bath, I'll do something—either read a book, listen to a podcast, or just [listen to] music—that's calming. Sometimes I'll read scripture or do some sort of meditation—something that fills my heart with, like you said, love and gratitude. We know heart coherence, which is when your heart is in a state of gratitude or love, is profoundly healing and helpful. What you were just describing before was probably the non-coherence—going to bed and waking up [with negative thoughts]. Now you're in coherence, and that actually makes a big difference. There are apps you can do like HeartMath. There are a lot of different heart rate variability things that get your heart into this rhythm. But if you don't even have an app, all it takes is really feeling the deep love and gratitude.
Dr. Jill 24:57
And I want you to comment on this, but I heard you earlier say something so important. I had a very short period in high school where I had an eating disorder as well. Those things come from either a lack of control or self-loathing. There are these pieces of not loving oneself. I heard you say something earlier that I want to talk about. One of the things that has transformed my health is that in the evening, I literally will hold my heart and say: “Thank you, heart, for beating another day! Thank you, cells, for giving me life and breath.”
Dr. Jill 25:27
[I have] so much love for my body, which has performed day after day after day for 40+ years and kept me breathing and alive. But I never used to be that way. I never used to have that deep, abiding love and gratitude for my own cells in my body that have kept me alive and kept me thriving. And it has transformed my health. I mean, I saw labs change because of that practice. So talk just a little bit about the importance of actually caring for ourselves and loving ourselves instead of punishing ourselves and loathing ourselves, because that's a big part of this.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 25:58
It is. It's a big part of it. A key question that I ask everybody is: On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you love yourself?—your sense of self-esteem, your self-worth. The problem is that women—often we're not reared to… It's almost like: “Oh, don't be too boastful. Don't be too much. Don't be too” this. “Don't be too” that. I'm talking from this deep sense of gratitude for the gift that you are as a human being. Most patients that I work with do not have a high number to that question. Nor did I. Nor did I. Gosh, anyone who's trying to not be here anymore is obviously not loving and accepting who they are.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 26:52
When we talk about the root cause a lot with functional medicine and naturopathic medicine, we want to figure out: What's the root of this? And there can be more than one root. There could be more than one thing going on. But for me, I think a really important piece is that I am adopted. That in utero experience, the wiring in the brain, and just the way that I perceive and have perceived the world from learning that I was adopted and so forth—hence this overachieving piece to compensate for this sense of lack that I felt within, this not-worthy piece because of the faulty belief that I wasn't wanted.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 27:36
I often feel like we're talking about the wrong organ even in mental health. Everyone's focused on the brain—and don't get me wrong, of course, that's a piece of it—but what about the heart? I share with patients that oftentimes I feel many of my depressive episodes have been this battle, if you will, between these two sides of myself, the ego, or mind, that wants to go left and the heart, the soul, the spirit that wants to go right. And I don't know which master to listen to. So, literally, I'm paralyzed.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 28:15
Christian Northrup talks about how the electrical activity in the heart is—I think it was 50 times more than the electrical activity in the brain. And I could talk about this probably for another hour. But the other piece I'll just mention before we want to move on is that in my husband's First Nation, so in Canada… First Nation healers talk about [how] the journey from the mind to the heart is a very short distance, but for some, it takes a lifetime to walk.
Dr. Jill 28:51
I love this. This is so important for people to hear. I feel like some of my biggest transformations… I was very analytical, [with a] background in science and engineering. I would always try to make sense here. When I started to drop down and feel and make decisions from this more intuitive heart base center, it was so much more powerful in the intelligence that came. I always say our analytical minds might be able to analyze 100 pieces of data very quickly. But [with] our heart—the intuitive level—we can take a million pieces of data, and the subconscious can take that in in a second and actually make a very good science-based decision. So it is so critical to really feel that and to feel that you are loved.
Dr. Jill 29:31
I see patients of all backgrounds. I love that you talk about the spiritual. I'm of a Judeo-Christian background. One thing that's helped me is, like, I'm a daughter of the king. And it's relevant to even you. Again, that may not resonate for you [who are] listening but if it does for me. It's actually helped me. It's not about ego. It's about: Who's am I? My identity is a bigger divine… Like, I am a daughter of the king in that sense. And again, if you've been adopted or otherwise, it's like: We're wanted, we're chosen, and we have a purpose. And finding a place for you within your belief system of purpose that's greater than yourself, something to connect to that's greater than yourself, something that's guiding you that's deeper—these things are really important.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 30:16
Very, very important. And there's a quote by Joseph Campbell that I really love to share, which is: “The heart must usher the mind into the zone of revelation.” By that, we mean we want to learn how to lead from a heart-centered place and then let the mind figure out all 50 million ways to analyze the data. But most people are doing it the other way around; they're leading from the mind. And then the mind often gets stuck in fear. Then the ego gets involved, and then we get run by the amygdala. And then we get stuck in these sort of four states—fight, fight, freeze, or fawn—and we don't know where to go, and we get stuck in analysis mode. But if you can learn to drop in and out of the head and into the body and listen to the beat… I often say, “Listen, how are you going to hear the voice of God if you're always talking?” You're not going to hear the messages because you're like: Blah, blah, blah, “Do this,” “Give me this,” you know? So what I'm leading into here is this concept of stillness.
Dr. Jill 31:27
A couple of years ago, one of my office staff gave me a little thing for Christmas. It said, “Be still.” I was one of those people who didn't stop moving. But honestly, I realized that's a trauma-based response because when I first started to stop moving, it was terrifying because I had to deal with myself. Then, as I got used to it and dealt with those emotions, I could now sit for hours and be comfortable and hear a much deeper sense of truth. But I remember the days when I couldn't sit still. And I'll tell you, if you're out there and you're busy busy busy and you can't sit still, there's probably trauma that we need to work on.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 32:00
Absolutely. Yes. Healing really, truly is in the feeling. I layered myself up with a lot of armor—a lot of busyness in doing and busyness in awards and all these ego-minded things—but [I was] very empty on the inside. [I was] never satisfied. You'd win one thing or achieve something and then not even pause to enjoy it, just on to the next. And our society is very driven by this concept of, I'll use the word status but it's really driving us in the wrong direction, actually. And what we need as the human family is connection, community, and love and respect for each other.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 32:47
And whenever you're pointing the finger at someone, there's three pointing back at you. So this idea of whatever we don't like in another is perhaps something that we're unwilling to acknowledge or look at within ourselves. But it's there. But it's more like the dark side or the shadow side. Love is what's going to heal us, not the other. So anyway, I know it's difficult and hard when hurt people hurt people because they're hurt people. And if you're sitting there being a hurt person, it's hard. It's really hard to rise above, like people suggest. So anyway, I know these are tall orders, but I guess the main thing is that if you don't love who you are, then that's what we've got to look at: Why? Who taught you that you weren't worthy of love?
Dr. Jill 33:36
Right. And I've heard that the commonalities to all humanity is feeling unworthy, unlovable, or helpless. There's nothing new under the sun. There's nothing new. We're not different. We're not alone. We're not unique. We all have these common fears. As we work through those, we find out we are lovable, we are worthy, and we're not helpless. But those are common things. So if you're out there, probably one of those three is at the base of some of the fears and things that we are talking about.
Dr. Jill 34:02
Let's shift in the last short bit here. We talked about diet and sleep. We talked a lot about spirituality, connection, and all of this. So two things. One is that we're getting out of a pandemic and a lot of us have been isolated. To me, that's just so sad because, while I don't think that it was wrong to try to take precautions, I also feel like isolation has been ignored as a cause of stress—high cortisol and immune dysfunction. This is a big deal. Oxytocin comes with hugging and touching, and we're not having as much of that. So any suggestions of how to stay connected?—number one. So I'll let you answer that. And then, in a few minutes, [please mention] if there are any basic nutritional supplements—we don't give medical advice—[and] some of the basic things that you might start with with someone who's suffering from depression or anxiety.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 34:50
Gosh, it's really been a year, right? I don't think anyone expected it to go on this long. Definitely take precautions. But I think there's more that we could be doing than simply washing our hands and wearing a mask. I think about the diversity of the gut microbiome and how important these things are. I won't go down that path too far because that wasn't your question. So how do we create community and connection at a time when we're told to isolate? That's difficult. But I think the best suggestions that I have been doing myself is maintaining… Listen, nature is open 24/7. Earth's playground is always open. So get out there and socially distance with your friend, colleague, or whoever it may be.
Dr. Jill 35:43
You can have your pods, right? I have a pod of a few friends that I connect with. I agree.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 35:50
And you have to be doing that. We have to be doing that. We have to make regular dates. And I hesitate to say meeting up like this on Zoom, but I also think it's important. I feel better. I see your beautiful face and I just feel the energy. It's better than sitting by yourself alone. So set those dates up as much as you may begrudge technology or what have you. Embrace it. This is a time to learn to embrace some of these things. I think that you just have to work within the parameters that may be in your specific area.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 36:31
Isolation doesn't have to mean that you're completely cut off. That's not what they're saying. So [it's about] not meeting in big groups and keeping it to one within your pod. Pets are another great piece. Pets are very loving. So get a pet friend if you don't already have one or borrow your neighbor's dog if you have to. But there's a lot of research just around this concept of [inaudible].
Dr. Jill 37:01
Absolutely. And unconditional love [is what] I think they show. I have two dogs. They're actually sitting right down here beside me. You heard them bark a minute ago. I always joke: I would have needed a lot more therapy if I didn't have my two puppies because they show us how to love unconditionally.
Dr. Jill 37:18
So what about the basics? Again, we won't make [medical] recommendations, but you mentioned tryptophan. [inaudible] is another one. What are some of the things that, nutrient-wise, we could do to support depression or anxiety?
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 37:28
Yes. Speaking broadly in terms of diet, let's focus a little bit more on—hopefully, I'm not offending any vegans or vegetarians, but if you're eating a regular diet—shifting the emphasis with your plate, making sure 50% is vegetables. And then you're having the protein and a little bit of a complex carb. Let's get out of your diet as much of the white products as we can and the pops. Drinking herbal teas and water [are beneficial].
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 37:58
In terms of supplementation, this is where it's helpful to work with somebody. I don't believe in supplementing yourself completely out of something, but there are some foundational supplements that I think everyone should be taking. Vitamin D is one of them. Omega 3 is another one. A healthy probiotic. You don't take the same probiotic forever, but supporting your gut is really important for the immune system and also the brain. There's a huge gut-brain relationship.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 38:24
I forgot to tell you—which is an important piece of this whole puzzle—that I did a year of antibiotics prior to developing the eating disorder. We didn't learn about this research or connection until many, many years later. [There is] a huge gut-brain relationship. B vitamins are extremely important to make this tryptophan pathway work. I usually always want everyone to eat tryptophan-forming foods, not take tryptophan, because there's another pathway tryptophan can go down, which we won't get into the scientific [details] of. But just understand 5-HTP. Magnesium is also very important—different forms of magnesium. The glycinate form is better for anxiety and depression.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 39:06
So we've just rattled off these four or five nutrients that are really important. Always remember the diet piece. But it's difficult sometimes, the farther down you are in that pit we talked about. Just to eat an orange—that's not going to cut it. You're going to need a little bit more fuel to get your plane off the ground, get you to cruising altitude, and get you feeling better. Then we can pull back once you're feeling better. But sometimes you need more fuel, i.e., more supplements and more support at the beginning.
Dr. Jill 39:37
I love what you're saying about food first. You need adequate protein, and if you're struggling with malabsorption or some issue, you can take amino acids in free form. Although I still prefer food, that can be helpful for some people. I like the full amino acids versus just a branch chain because you're only going to get this bodybuilding thing versus the full amino spectrum, [which] is a lot better for brain health.
Dr. Jill 39:59
Gut—I love that you mentioned that because I used to get college kids that were like, “I'm suffering from depression or anxiety.” I'd say, “Well, we're going to do a stool test.” And they'd look at me like, “A stool test? Why do I… ” But what we'd talk about very quickly was [that] your gut microbiome has everything to do with your brain. And like you said, we could do a whole other hour on the pathways in the gut and some of these abnormal pathways that cause inflammation or abnormal chemicals that cause depression, anxiety, etc.
Dr. Jill 40:25
Things that you've probably tried, if you're listening out there: GABA can be very helpful for anxiety. Theanine is from green tea. You can also take it as a supplement. [It's] very helpful. 5-HTP or tryptophan are precursors of serotonin. There's a small percentage of people that have this weird pathway that won't do well on those, but many people do.
Dr. Jill 40:42
Tyrosine can make more dopamine. That's an easy amino acid. Again, this is with your doctor. You want to look at dosing and stuff. But the really neat thing is that there are a lot of amino acids that we can push different pathways by giving them selectively. Then, as you mentioned earlier, cortisol can be too high or too low. And it can be either way: Present with depression or anxiety. So with your doctor looking at your hormone levels and your cortisol levels—all of those things can be helpful.
Dr. Jill 41:09
We're just about out of time. First of all, any last bits or words of wisdom if people are listening and they're struggling? You've given some great advice. Any last parting words of wisdom here?
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 41:21
Yes. The last thing I do want to mention: Now I'm 54—or will be too fast down the road here. So menopause is also an important time when things can shift and that's hormones. Dr. Jill was just recapping about hormones. But also remember, not only thyroid and cortisol, but estrogen, progesterone, and DHEA—those are other important ones too.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 41:45
The last thing I really want to say is that if you're listening and you know somebody who's struggling, please reach out and keep reaching out. Don't take it personally if you reach out once and they don't call you back. Sometimes you have to call 10 times or actually go and knock on the door. And if you're somebody who's listening and you are struggling, the only reason I share my story is to give you hope that this is a journey and there are solutions to what you're going through. You do not have to stay where you are.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 42:23
As you learn to navigate these four big areas—the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual—you will move into a better place of wellness. So that's my hope for you. I just think there are too many people suffering and struggling. Mental health was already a problem before this pandemic around the virus. And it's only, I think, going to deepen the divide in the mental health problem that was already there.
Dr. Jill 42:52
I couldn't agree more. It's revealing. For all of us, if we have a greater purpose, a greater source, and we've done some of the work… And we're all in the process, so I don't mean to sound like I'm any further ahead than any of you listening, because I'm in there just with you. But as we find that deeper meaning of purpose, the waves of life can come, [along with] the struggles and difficulties. And they're going to come. I always say that you're either in the midst of a crisis, about to go through one, or you've just gone through one. It's just one of those three. It's either coming, you've just been through it, or you're in it.
Dr. Jill 43:26
You can't expect that it's going to be easy all the time. But if you have some sort of purpose, some deep, abiding love, some sort of connection to the divine, and a greater purpose, those things can really take you through because you have an anchor. You have something that keeps you stable in the midst of the storms of life. For me, that's what I've found to be the most important because life will bring storms, period. It's inevitable. It's life. Change is inevitable. But if we have something that grounds us or anchors us, that can be core.
So we talked about your website, but repeat it again, and your books. If people want to find out more about you or read what you've written, give us the resources and I'll be sure to add the links too.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 44:06
Yes, sure. And I'll just say: Understand that you don't have to be at the mercy of your mind. You can learn to manage it. So, DrChristinaBjorndal.com. I have Beyond the Label, which is, I think, a really great book that guides you through these 10 steps that I think I've walked through to regain my mental health. So that's a great book. There's The Essential Diet. There's a journal and then a book that I've coauthored called From Shadows to Light: A Whole Human Approach to Mental Health.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 44:41
I have created an online program as well that goes a little bit deeper into each of the 10 steps, so that's an option for people to check out. Those are the main things. The usual social media channels—I do my best to be there. I'm thankful for people like you who are further down than me and know how to do more [inaudible].
Dr. Jill 45:01
Oh, I don't know. We're in it together. But I'll be sure to share this too, if you want to follow Dr. Bjorndal and me. And again, check out her program. Check out her books. You have her website. I will put the link down below. And if you aren't part of my newsletter, often I'll share these kinds of interviews and things too. You can go to my website, JillCarnahan.com, and sign up for that. Well, Dr. Bjorndal, it has been just a pleasure and the time went by way too quickly.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 45:27
It did. It was like, “Oh, gosh!”
Dr. Jill 45:29
Yes, I know. Thank you so much for joining me today! I look forward to talking to you again soon.
Dr. Christina Bjorndal 45:34
Okay, yes. God bless you all. Thank you so much!
* These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. The product mentioned in this article are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. The information in this article is not intended to replace any recommendations or relationship with your physician. Please review references sited at end of article for scientific support of any claims made.
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