Welcome to Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan! In this episode, Dr. Carnahan is joined by the esteemed Dr. Evan Hirsch to discuss a topic that affects millions of people around the world: fatigue.
Are you tired of feeling tired? Have you tried various methods to resolve your fatigue but to no avail? Well, you're in luck because Dr. Hirsch has developed a comprehensive 4-step program that can help you naturally resolve fatigue and regain your energy levels.
Key Points
- Learn the 4 Simple Steps to Recover from fatigue
- What are the 5 Toxic insults that need to be addressed
- How important is mindset in recovering from mold
Our Guest – Dr. Evan Hirsch
Evan H. Hirsch, MD, (also known as the EnergyMD) is a world-renowned Energy expert, best-selling author and professional speaker. He is the creator of the EnergyMD Method, the science-backed and clinically proven 4 step process to resolve chronic fatigue and Long Covid naturally. Through his best-selling book, podcast, and international online programs, he has helped thousands of people around the world. He has been featured on TV, podcasts, and summits, and when he’s not at the office, you can find him singing musicals, dancing hip-hop, and playing basketball with his family.
The EnergyMD Programs: https://www.energymdmethod.com/work-with-us
Website: https://www.energymdmethod.com/
Free FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/716677235153150
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/DrEvanHirsch/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evanhirschmd/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/EvanHHirschMD
Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD
Dr. Jill Carnahan is Your Functional Medicine Expert® dually board certified in Family Medicine for ten years and in Integrative Holistic Medicine since 2015. She is the Medical Director of Flatiron Functional Medicine, a widely sought-after practice with a broad range of clinical services including functional medical protocols, nutritional consultations, chiropractic therapy, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, and massage therapy.
As a survivor of breast cancer, Crohn’s disease, and toxic mold illness she brings a unique perspective to treating patients in the midst of complex and chronic illness. Her clinic specializes in searching for the underlying triggers that contribute to illness through cutting-edge lab testing and tailoring the intervention to specific needs.
A popular inspirational speaker and prolific writer, she shares her knowledge of hope, health, and healing live on stage and through newsletters, articles, books, and social media posts! People relate to Dr. Jill’s science-backed opinions delivered with authenticity, love and humor. She is known for inspiring her audience to thrive even in the midst of difficulties.
Featured in Shape Magazine, Parade, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, First for Women, Townsend Newsletter, and The Huffington Post as well as seen on NBC News and Health segments with Joan Lunden, Dr. Jill is a media must-have. Her YouTube channel and podcast features live interviews with the healthcare world’s most respected names.
The Podcast
The Video
The Transcript
198: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: 4 Steps to Resolve Fatigue Naturally with Dr. Evan Hirsch
Dr. Jill 00:00
Hey, guys! I’m so excited to announce that the movie that you’ve been waiting for, the documentary “Doctor/Patient”, is now available for rent or purchase at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Check out the trailer here:
00:13
Dr. Jill: When I really knew something was wrong was when I started having trouble walking up the stairs. I was supposed to be grateful and happy and healing and well and thriving, but I did not feel that way. I was so sick. Like always, I wanted to find an answer, and I had to figure it out. And I had to figure it out to save my own life. So I dove in.
00:38
James Maskell: Jill is the leading voice in biotoxin illness and chronic conditions that are driven by toxicity.
00:43
Bree Argetsinger: Oh my gosh, you're dealing with mold? You have to work with Dr. Jill Carnahan.
00:47
Patient 1: Dr. Jill is the first person that actually began to shed some light on the problem.
00:53
Dr. Jill: What I do is listen to the patient, and we together talk about what else is possible.
00:59
Patient 2: I don't know why I'm crying.
01:02
Patient 3: She saved my life.
01:06
Dr. Jill: The deepest lessons and most profound insights come in the suffering, come in the dark moments. Self-compassion is the healing transition that shifts something inside of us. It's actually the thing that we need most in order to heal.
01:26
Narrator: Doctor/Patient—available now at DoctorPatientMovie.com.
Dr. Jill 01:36
Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for the most cutting-edge insights in integrative and functional medicine. I'm Dr. Jill, your host, and in each episode, we dive deep into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research and practice, empowering you with knowledge and inspiration and aiding you on your journey to optimal health.
Dr. Jill 02:02
Before I introduce our esteemed guest, I just want to be sure to announce: It is here, you guys. My documentary, which I've been working on for the past two years, Doctor/Patient is out. It's available for rent or purchase online at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Please listen and share with your loved ones or anyone who's been through a healing crisis. You will find even through the trailer that I go deeper than I've ever gone into the vulnerability of healing and how that looks. You're going to see parts of me you've never seen before. So be sure to check that out—DoctorPatientMovie.com.
Dr. Jill 02:38
Okay, now without further ado, I want to introduce my guest, Dr. Evan Hirsch—also known as the EnergyMD—who is a world-renowned Energy expert, best-selling author, and professional speaker. He's the creator of the EnergyMD Method, the science-backed, clinically-proven four-step process to resolve chronic fatigue and long COVID naturally. We're going to be diving into that today. Any of you who have ever experienced fatigue, raise your hands. I think that's probably 100% of you. We're going to be diving into the four-step process and some other tips and tricks for those chronically ill patients, whether it's you or a loved one.
Dr. Jill 03:14
Through his best-selling book, podcast, and international online platform, he's helped thousands of people around the world. He's been featured on TV, podcasts, and summits. And when he's not in the office, you can find him singing musicals, dancing hip-hop, and playing basketball with his family.
Welcome, Dr. Hirsch!
Dr. Evan Hirsch 03:30
Jill, thanks so much for having me on!
Dr. Jill 03:33
You're welcome. Gosh, I want to dive right in. But before we do, I always love the backstory, which is why we do what we do. Tell us a little bit about how your journey began into medicine and then how you got to be the EnergyMD.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 03:49
My journey into medicine: I was good at science and I wanted to help people. I grew up in New Jersey with a very holistic mom, but I had never met a naturopath or a chiropractor. As far as I knew, the only way to help people was by becoming a medical doctor. I did learn about Doctor of Osteopathy (DO) school. I did apply to DO school, but I never heard back from DO school, so I ended up going to MD school. But that was my path.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 04:24
Along the way, I asked a lot of questions. And I kept asking questions. The more questions that I asked, the more I realized that allopathy did not have a lot of answers. So I had to keep searching. I was board-certified in holistic medicine during residency. I did my first hypnosis training session while I was still in medical school. Then I came out and I started my practice. I graduated. While I was doing residency, I was doing acupuncture on some of the normal medical beds that we had, which was quite uncomfortable. But they allowed me to do it during residency, which was nice. Then I came out of residency. I did my first functional medicine training and started practicing.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 05:10
All that to say, when I started my residency, I met my wife. We fell in love. Three months later, she couldn't get out of bed and had fatigue. The fatigue lasted for about three years. This was in 2004. There really wasn't much going on back then. We had the Adrenal Fatigue book by Dr. Wilson. But most of the people that she saw didn't have a clue about how to help. She got mostly better. We can talk about how she did that. But then we got married, I graduated from residency, and we had a child. I started my practice.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 05:51
Then, a couple of years later, I got chronic fatigue. It lasted for about five years. It just about destroyed my life. It just about destroyed my relationship. She's still not 100%. She's like: “Hey, can you help out at home? We've got this new child.” I can't play with my child because I'm too exhausted. I can't help out at home because I'm too exhausted. At work, I feel so much shame because I have fatigue and I'm practicing functional medicine. I'm practicing on myself and I can't help myself. I can help others, but just not with fatigue. I'm taking naps underneath my desk. I finally realized that I had to go back to the drawing board.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 06:29
I knew from my functional medicine training that if I knew the causes that I had, I would be successful. So I went on a journey of finding all the causes. Inevitably, I had to go into environmental medicine and learn about heavy metals, chemicals, molds, and infections—including Lyme and then trauma—in order to get myself well. I wrote a book about it. And now I've helped lots of people and that's become my mission.
Dr. Jill 06:55
Oh, Dr. Hirsch, you hit on so many beautiful themes that I want to touch on before we go on because there's a story there that's come to a lot of people. First of all, the curiosity you had—that, to me, is the driver. There are studies that show curiosity—I've said this before—is connected to genius. You and I may not be geniuses, but that curiosity is definitely a driver. You probably are; I'll just speak for myself. [laughter] I didn't mean it like that. I just meant that I'm not assuming I'm a genius. But I know that that curiosity is the driver. You were in allopathic medicine, the same with me—so similar of a journey—saying: “What if…” “What about this?” Or, “Why not this?”
Dr. Jill 07:34
I think it's a mind that goes into medicine with curiosity that comes out saying: Yes, there are wonderful things there for trauma, heart attacks, and all those kinds of things. But when you deal with chronic, complex illnesses that have to do with environmental toxins, infectious issues, and the things we'll talk about today, the answers in conventional medicine are kind of slim, right?
Dr. Evan Hirsch 07:54
They're incredibly limited. Yes. And I'm definitely far from a genius. And Jill, please call me Evan.
Dr. Jill 08:00
Oh, thank you.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 08:04
I'm like, “Dr. Hirsch is my dad.” He's a PhD. And I operate online now, so I tell people not to call me a doctor anymore because I'm operating online as a coach.
Dr. Jill 08:13
Okay, awesome, Evan. And you can call me Jill, too. The same thing.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 08:16
Cool.
Dr. Jill 08:17
Curiosity—it's funny how unique it is. All of us in this world of functional medicine have some sort of curiosity. But I'm always surprised that a lot of our colleagues are like: “Well, if it wasn't taught in medical school, then it must not exist”—that idea. I know patients listening can relate. The second theme I heard you say was that, unfortunately, your wife got ill and then you got ill. So often, those of us in this field have experienced very personal loss, suffering, and illness. We come up against what the limitations of our training are. You definitely had that piece as well—first, with your wife and then with yourself.
Dr. Jill 08:52
Thirdly—and then I'll let you talk—as professionals, so often we think we have to have all the answers. I remember years and years ago, even after my cancer, speaking on stage and saying, “Oh, I did this” and “I beat cancer.” I had this story all tied up with a neat bow. But the truth was, I was still suffering from fatigue. But I didn't let on that I was not just tied up in a bow and everything's healed and done, but that I'm still on the journey every day to stay well.
Dr. Jill 09:17
Then I came across mold. What I realized in that (this is about 10 or 12 years ago) as I was speaking was that piece—being on the journey with our patients—is so powerful because of the empathy it creates not only in ourselves but in our patients and our clients. Your coaching clients, your readers, and all those people who are in your world know: “Dr. Evan knows. He understands. He's been there.” I think that's so powerful because those lessons we learned in illness teach us more than any textbook, right?
Dr. Evan Hirsch 09:47
It provides so much compassion—things that we understand that other people can't—just from being in there and having to drag yourself out of bed and go about your day because you have to provide for your family and take care of yourself. So absolutely. One of the things I wanted to mention in terms of my story about getting together with my wife that's always so interesting is that we found that there was mold in her home, which is now our home. But the other thing, too, is the swapping of infections. When you get together with somebody, you're kissing with them and you're intimate. You can swap infections. It's very common when you're looking at the history. People say, “This is the moment that I know that I got sick.” It's like, “How is it in relationship to some of the people that you've been with?” It's very interesting to look at that correlation.
Dr. Jill 10:41
Oh, yes. Let's start there, because we were going to go right to the depths of mold and infection. At the core, infectious burden and toxic environmental insults are so core to fatigue. Give us a framework for why infections and toxins might be part of the fatigue.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 10:57
It's really important to remember that when you're talking about energy and energy function, we're talking about the mitochondria—energy production. The mitochondria are found in every cell in the body, except for red blood cells. It produces about 70–90% of our energy. It can be significantly damaged by what I call the toxic five. These are heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and trauma. All of those things are significant stressors on the body. They damage the mitochondria. That's me smashing the mitochondria. So in terms of bringing the mitochondria back online and increasing the energy, you need to inject it with good love to get the mitochondria to increase production and increase the number of mitochondria in the body. Then you have to remove the toxins off of the mitochondria. That's one component of energy and fatigue.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 11:50
The other components are some of the other deficiencies, which are also caused by the toxic five. We've got deficiencies in hormones. The adrenals give us our ‘get up and go' in the morning. They are our anti-inflammatory. They create our circadian rhythm. And they are the sentinel gland in relationship to the thyroid and sex hormones. There are vitamins and minerals that get deficient from the toxic five. All those different components end up decreasing our energy.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 12:22
A lot of people come to see us. I know you work with a similar population where they've been seeing other practitioners who are replacing their deficiencies, and they're feeling a little bit better. You can definitely replace the adrenals, the mitochondria, vitamins, minerals, and all these things. And you're going to feel a bit better. But the reality is, until you remove those toxic five out of your body and out of your life—those are the real root causes—you're not going to get all the way better.
Dr. Jill 12:49
I love that you say that because I deal with a lot of mold patients. Talk about personal experience. I knew of it. I knew in the background. But when I went through that with toxic mold, I realized: “Oh, wait. This is a huge thing for myself and my patients. And nothing's going to happen. No amount of supplements, diet, lifestyle changes, positive thinking, or even sleep will reverse that unless I get that out of my body and out of my environment.”
Dr. Jill 13:16
Maybe we just dive in first to mold, because that's a big one. What was your experience with that? What's your experience with patients? Because it's kind of the elephant in the room in many cases.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 13:25
Yes. My personal experience was that we had a moldy porch. It wasn't until we removed that… I did testing in the home and had a mold expert take a look at our home as well. We got rid of a front-loading clothes washer. They get really moldy. You really can't keep those clean. There were a number of things that we did that were really significant. Over time, by taking binders and glutathione, I got the rest out of my body. My daughter was going to school at a Waldorf that had mold in the basement. So we donated air filters that got down to the .003 microns that are needed for mycotoxins to the school to protect her a little bit while she was there. I tried to give her some binders on her way to school and stuff like that. But it was really interesting when we did our mycotoxin test later that we could see the mycotoxins that we got from the environment that we shared and then the mycotoxins that she got from school. That was the experience that my whole family had. Over time, we saw the mycotoxin levels go down.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 14:36
In terms of my clients, it is that elephant in the room. Oftentimes, even people listening to this are still like, “Nah, mold's not a thing,” or at least not for them. But the reality is that when you have chronic fatigue or long COVID, when you've gotten to this place where your body has kind of called it quits and is like, “Okay, I need to go to sleep now” or “I need to rest all the time,” it means that there are toxins that have built up in your body. It means that you have a combination of the toxic five—the heavy metals, the chemicals, the molds, the infections, and the trauma. You have all of those.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 15:15
The longer that I do this, the less I test. I don't test those things anymore, besides whether or not somebody's living in a moldy environment, because 10 out of 10 times with all the people that I work with, they have all of those things. When I used to do testing, like every three months, sometimes it would come out, sometimes it wouldn't. But inevitably, all of those things would come out over time, and they all have to be addressed. So that's the elephant in the room: “Yes, you do have mold. Yes, you do have these other toxins.”
Dr. Evan Hirsch 15:43
You may have had mold when you were five years old. You may have lived in a place that had water damage—some sort of busted pipe, a leaky roof, or whatever—and you had significant exposure. It hasn't been removed out of your body because you haven't done the things that you need to. And all those toxins accumulate over time. Eventually, there's a straw that broke the camel's back. But it's been this entire picture ever since you came out of the womb and you had hundreds of chemicals that were already in your body just from coming out of the womb from mom. So it's really important to understand that whole picture.
Dr. Jill (pre-recording) 16:17
Hey, everybody. I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected: Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science, and Faith, is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming a life-threatening illness and the tools, tips, tricks, hope, and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein-Barr, and mold- and biotoxin-related illnesses. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by ReadUnexpected.com. There, you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine and finding resilience.
Dr. Jill 17:13
I couldn't agree more. And I love that you said testing. What I see online is that people are all worried about mycotoxins in the urine and testing, saying: “This is the end-all, be-all. Go get a test.” You and I, as clinicians, know that there's not just an excretional component. There's a whole lot of other factors. And of all the tests that we have for any of these topics, none of them are perfect. In fact, they're quite far from it.
Dr. Jill 17:37
You mentioned the five and I'm sure people are really interested. Like I said, I couldn't agree more with how you're approaching it, assuming that we're all toxic and we all have to deal with this. But do you want to briefly go down the five and talk about each one a little bit—about how you might approach it? Maybe you approach it as a whole, but tell us a little bit about your approach to the top five.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 17:54
Absolutely. In order to talk about the top five, I'm just going to talk about my four-step process cursorily—shortly. The first step of my four-step process, the EnergyMD Method, is to figure out the causes that people have. And 90% of these can be determined by symptoms and history alone. The second step is to replace the deficiencies—some of those that we talked about. This process is all about removing the toxic five. But in order to do that successfully, I do find that replacing the deficiencies makes people more robust. These are some of the lifestyle habits, making sure there's enough good food, good water, good sleep, and good movement. Most of the people I work with really can't move much, which is okay, because they're so fatigued.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 18:42
And then it's [about] replacing the adrenals, the mitochondria, the thyroid, etc. But those three I call ‘the big three' because they make the most significant shift in people's energy when they're optimized. They'll also help you deal with any of the die-off that ends up happening in step 4 when you start to remove these toxins and it's hard on the body.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 19:02
Step 3 is opening up the detox pathways or the drainage pathways. These are the exit pathways in order to get the toxins out of the body. These are opening up things like the liver, the kidney, the lymph, the lymph that's in the brain, the gallbladder, and the intestines. All those different pathways need to be open so that when you go into step 4 and start removing each of these toxins, they have a place to go. Otherwise, you're going to feel worse. Is there anything you want to say about that before I jump into each of those toxic five?
Dr. Jill 19:38
I love that because many people aren't talking about the pre-treatments, which are your steps 1 through 3. When you don't deal with the nutrient depletions or the exit pathways, people get stuck. They feel terrible. They quit the program. I've seen that a hundred times, with people coming from other practitioners or whatever. So I really, really want to emphasize to patients that it's not all about just going and taking a bunch of binders and glutathione until you deal with those other things. So thank you for making that point. It's so important.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 20:07
Yes. And I think that so much of this is about setting up expectations. All of our programs used to be 12 months. They still kind of are. We do have a starter program for three months just to get a taste of who we are and what we do. But the reality is that everybody who goes through the program is going to need at least 12 months. The magic really happens at month six or month nine when you get the mass effect. When you're removing a number of the toxic five, all of a sudden things start clicking.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 20:42
You have to keep coaching people all along the way, like: “Yes, you're not going to feel better.” “Yes, you're not going to feel well.” “Yes, you're not going to feel better.” Then, all of a sudden, they start to feel better. It is [about] setting up those expectations so people realize: “Oh yes, you're not going to feel better in the first month”—two, three, four, or whatever. That's been a big part of this work as well.
Dr. Jill 21:02
And I want to just repeat that for those of you listening because I went in these online groups—watching mold toxicity, Lyme, and those [types of] groups—and over and over and over again, people are complaining: They just found mold two months ago, they're starting treatment, and they don't feel better.
Dr. Jill 21:14
For me, the same thing. It was a minimum of six months until I started to shift at all. I got rashes from head to toe and hives because I was doing it too quickly. Too much mast cell activation. For two months, I had head-to-toe hives. I was a mess. But I kept pushing and I felt horrible. I wasn't even close until six months, when I started to get the glimmer that something might be turning around. My skin started to clear just a little. I would say it was more like 12 months until I really started to have the energy return, and 18 months until I started to feel maybe 50–80% better.
Dr. Jill 21:45
I love that we're framing that for people because if you're listening out there and you're three months in and are like, “This is not working; my practitioner is not doing the right thing,” it might be just time. So thank you for saying that, Evan.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 21:56
Absolutely. That's so important. And I find that people have to be out of their moldy environment for about six months, having been taking binders along the way, in order to notice a significant difference. Like I said, a minimum of 12 months. That's hard for people to hear sometimes, but this didn't happen in a day. You would make this investment now. It's kind of like doing a master's degree on your health. You make the investment now and then you have the rest of your life to enjoy. I know that, for me, I was considering not doing my residency because I came out of medical school and knew what I wanted to do: I wanted to practice more natural medicine and more integrative medicine. I'm glad I did residency, even though it was really challenging. But those three years gave me a knowledge base that I was able to use moving forward, which gave me a lot more confidence in my career. You make that investment now and then you have all the benefits for the rest of your life.
Dr. Jill 22:59
I love that. I talk to a lot of practitioners and not very many of them are telling people realistically how this does take time. There are a lot of those programs out there [that say] “Six to eight weeks, and you'll be better.” I think that's a disservice to people because it's not honest when you're really sick.
Dr. Jill 23:12
Before we go to the top five, we've been baiting people, but I wanted to go to the detox pathways. This is so important. At least for me, allopathically [as an] MD, I did not learn this except from my naturopathic friends. But I'd love for you to talk a little bit about lymph, the kidneys, gut, and liver—maybe some practical tips that people might be able to do without seeing a doctor to help those pathways because that's so crucial.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 23:37
Yes. The fastest way there is through water—consuming three liters of water a day. You do want your water to be as clean as possible. I do like it to be filtered. If you go to ewg.org/tapwater, you can put in your zip code and see just how nasty your tap water is. You're going to want to get a filter right away. Even just a countertop Aquasana is a really good way to go. I do prefer distillation if we're really concerned about the water, but block carbon filtration can definitely work as well. I have reservations about reverse osmosis because oftentimes it's sitting in water, so it can get really moldy. That has to be cleaned a lot more. You have to take it out of the housing in order to clean it, so it's a lot more challenging. But the first place to start is water and working slowly up to consuming more water.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 24:39
If you do have a bit of a taste for sea salt or can tolerate it, putting in some sea salt as much as you can tolerate is going to be really good for your adrenals. It'll increase the osmotic gradient and blood flow to your brain, which will end up giving you some more energy. If you feel worse—headaches, swelling, or something like that—by doing the sea salt, then don't do that. But water is the first place to go.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 20:04
The other thing is food. Food will naturally detoxify if you're removing foods that are more toxic. I like to tell people what you can eat. I think if you eat protein and vegetables with a little bit of fruit, that's ideal for most people. Half your plate at every meal should be vegetables. That's what I find. You can tweak. I do recommend playing around with different diets or food plans. But [by] removing gluten, dairy, soy, corn, chocolate, alcohol, sugars, and processed foods, you're going to have a little bit of a detox reaction, potentially, where you feel a little bit worse for maybe a week or so. But then you notice a significant improvement in your energy, your mood, etc. That seems to work really well for people. Those are two things that you can do right away.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 26:01
And then movement. The lymph system is the only system in the body that doesn't have its own pump, so it does require movement. This could just be a walk every day. It's whatever you can tolerate. Most people love dancing. Just dance every single day to your favorite song. It's going to be three to five minutes. As long as it doesn't wipe you out and make your fatigue worse, it's a great opportunity. And sing at the top of your lungs. That's really good for your nervous system and vagus nerves. So those are some quick tips that people can get started on right away.
Dr. Jill 26:36
Oh, I love that. I had a patient the other day who was diagnosed with early Parkinson's and was talking about dancing. Some doctor had told her to do very specific cardio stuff. I could see her face light up when she talked about the dancing. Granted, it maybe wasn't the most evidence-based exercise for Parkinson's. But when I saw her face, I wrote down on a script, saying, “You go out salsa dancing,” because I saw that joy. I just saw it on her face. She was like, “They want me to do this…” and this and this. “And I don't want to go to the gym.” I'm like: “Go dancing. It might not be perfect, but it's good.” So I love that you said that. And I know you have a background in hip-hop. Someday we'll have to go hip hop or you can teach me. [laughter] I love that.
Okay, on to the five toxin areas that we can address. Let's talk about those.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 27:27
The first one is heavy metals. Once again, this is a toxin that accumulates throughout our lives. We get it from mom through the placenta. I ate a lot of tuna fish growing up. I had mercury fillings. Both of those things ended up increasing my mercury and exposure to lead, cadmium, and tin. All of these things accumulate over time and end up being neurotoxins, distracting the immune system so that it can't focus on what it's supposed to be doing, which is removing toxins and especially infections out of the body. All these heavy metals, chemicals, and molds end up distracting the immune system, which makes a lot of these infections that may be in balance become out of balance and end up becoming opportunistic. So that's the heavy metals.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 28:17
We're exposed to about over 100,000 tons of mercury through mercury vapor through coal plants that end up getting over the oceans, getting into all of the seafood. Unfortunately, everything that's coming out of the ocean now has mercury in it. If you are going to eat fish, the smaller the fish, the better—anchovies and sardines. I don't really eat much of any fish. If we do end up having some salmon, it's like once a month, maybe once every other month. Then, oftentimes, I'm taking something in order to bind up any of the exposures that we would potentially have. So that's heavy metals.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 28:57
In terms of chemicals, over time, this number has been increasing. But now I believe it's up to like 89,000 or 90,000 different chemicals that we’re exposed to on a regular basis. There are like 550 different chemicals that women are exposed to before they leave the house in the morning. A lot of that is coming from cosmetics. Now with nanoparticles, it's getting significantly worse because we're getting more exposure absorbed deeper into the body. These chemicals are plastics and pesticides that we’re being exposed to every time we're not eating organic food. Even [when] eating organic food, there's always some blowover from some of the non-organic farms. So you are getting some pesticides from those as well.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 29:46
Like I mentioned, there are the plastics, the BPAs, and all these different products. If it says BPA-free, but it's still plastic, it's a different kind. Maybe it's BPC or one of those other ones. You just want to avoid it the best you can. You want to choose glass over plastics. Remember all the plastic that we microwaved back in the '80s and the '90s? All of those things went into our bodies.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 30:08
I remember driving cross-country. I drove cross-country like six times and took six different routes. I always had a plastic water bottle next to me that was being baked by the sun and then I would drink it. I was mainlining the plastics in there. So that's heavy metals and chemicals.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 30:26
Then the molds. The statistics are generally [showing] that 50% to maybe 60% of all buildings in first-world countries have water damage. Most of those have mold and other infections or biological agents associated with them that end up triggering a number of the different symptoms that we have. It can be a roof leak. It can be a busted pipe. It can be a flood in the basement. It can be any place you've ever lived that [has] ever had any of those. So it's really important to remember that, “Oh, yes, you lived in this old home.”
Dr. Evan Hirsch 30:59
Even if you lived in a new home, have you driven around town when they're building new homes? It's raining. It's raining and they're building this home. You see it. It's all wood. And what happens the next day, when it's dry and clean? They just slap everything together and make it really tight. All of a sudden, now you have an environment that's wet and warm. It's perfect for mold. So it doesn't always mean that if you have a new place, it's free of mold. It still has to be tested. You still have to have it evaluated. So that's heavy metals, chemicals, molds, and infections.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 31:36
In terms of infections, we've got viruses. We've got the new virus and the spike protein. We've got some of these bacteria and some of the bacteria that change shapes, like Borrelia, Bartonella, and Babesia, like some of these Lyme-type infections. We've got parasites. All of these can become opportunistic when you have some of the other toxins, including trauma, which we haven't even gotten to yet. All of them can play a role.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 32:04
If you've got pain on the bottom of your feet and muscle cramps that are usually worse at night—maybe you're having a hard time sleeping—you may have Bartonella. If you have spontaneous sweating and anxiety that can progress to panic and panic attacks—maybe depression that progresses to suicidal thoughts or suicidal action or you've got some shortness of breath—that could be Babesia, which is considered the North American malaria. There are a number of these infections that you can tell based on your symptoms and your history that may be contributing to what you have going on. But it's never just that. All these different causes that I'm talking about today are always a combination of these. It's never just one, which is a really important point.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 32:50
Then the last thing is trauma. You don't have to have what we call big T trauma or really significant abuse, whether it's physical, mental, emotional, or sexual. You could have little t trauma, which is maybe like what I had—rejection of a peer group, which happened to me a couple of times in my life. Or, you're one of three children like I am. There's no way that your parents can give enough love to one kid, let alone three kids. We end up adapting to life in order to survive. It serves us at the time when we're kids in that family dynamic, but now it's no longer serving us. In fact, it's harming us. So we have to reprogram our brain and we've got a four-step mindset process that we go through and we recommend some of these limbic system and amygdala system retraining programs, which are really helpful. But you've got to work on all the fronts: The mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, energetic. Different components.
Dr. Jill 33:50
Wow!
Dr. Evan Hirsch 33:51
That was a mouthful.
Dr. Jill 33:52
Yes, but that was so good! Evan, I've interviewed hundreds of people—we're almost up to 200 episodes—and this is one of the most comprehensive [explanations]. I've known about your work, but I am impressed with you as far as the depth and breadth of your work and the compassion that comes through. Truly, I am impressed and honored to have you here. And I love, love, love the framework you just laid out because it's so true!
Dr. Jill 34:17
It's interesting; in medical school, we're taught Occam's razor, which is that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. Then we get into functional medicine and we're like: “Oh, no, no, wait! This is actually very, very complex.” And I love that you framed it that way—that mostly everyone out there suffering from fatigue has maybe all five of those things or likely more than one. As a patient, they want one drug, one pill, one easy answer. And I want to just be real. You and I know this. It's not easy. You and I have come through it, so it's possible.
Dr. Jill 34:49
Gosh, I want to dive into long COVID. But I think one thing that bears mentioning is that maybe someone listening is like: “This is overwhelming!” Obviously, they can get your programs and your book. We're going to mention all of those websites. If you're listening or watching anywhere, you can find in the show notes where to find Dr. Evan, and we'll end with that.
Dr. Jill 35:04
What about hope? How do we give patients hope in this?—because it is a long process. We said 12 months. We said, “You have five or more things going on.” What pieces of hope could you give the listeners?
Dr. Evan Hirsch 35:16
When it comes down to it, it can be easy if we want to make this as simple as possible. The reality is that you find the causes that you have, and then you take the treatment for it. That's all you have to do. Really. Every single day, you're asking yourself, “Okay, what do I need to do today to get better?” And if you've got the treatment and then you've got a partner like me or Jill, you can ask those questions and you can get those check-ins. You can make sure that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. But as long as you're addressing all the causes, no stone will be left unturned and you'll be successful at the end of that journey.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 35:50
As humans, we overestimate the amount we can get done in a day and underestimate the amount that we can get done in a year. The reality is, when you go through this process, at the end of the year, you look back and you're amazed at what you've accomplished. You just have to have that perspective. You have to keep moving forward. And you have to make sure that you've got a partner who's going to help you with that.
Dr. Jill 36:12
Oh, brilliant. Such good hope! I remember just recently hearing a spiritual advisor talk about two questions: “What do I need to know? What do I need to do?” I was like, “That really fits with what you're saying there.” You can do that on a physical level too for our physical health. What do I need to know? Make sure you guys out there get the right information. That's one reason Dr. Evan and I are podcasting and sharing. It's because we want to get that information out. But then, what do I need to do?
Dr. Jill 36:34
The daily habits are really [important], and it sounds like [they are] for you, too. I always find that those daily boring, monotonous habits that I have are the things that bound my faith and my health journey. It's often those core issues that are really making the difference, not some big spa trip for 21 days, right?
Dr. Evan Hirsch 36:53
Yes. And it's delayed gratification. You have to understand that [with] what you're doing right now, you may not be feeling it, but it's going to pay off later.
Dr. Jill 37:02
Great. Okay, let's shift in our last few minutes. Long COVID, you mentioned it in your bio so I know you're dealing with that like I am. It's almost like the other elephant in the room, especially post-pandemic. It's real. Patients are suffering. A Stanford study showed that 20% of young people in their 20s were suffering some form of symptoms [for] three months or longer, often six months or longer. Are you seeing this? How often is it there? And what else is in the mix with this that we need to think about?
Dr. Evan Hirsch 37:30
It's absolutely there. I'm seeing a lot of it, and I think it's important. It's always got to be in the mix now. And what I'm finding [is that] we're having the most success with people. Yes, we want to remove the spike protein, but they also have the rest of the toxic five. The toxic five set the stage. So you already have these toxins that are accumulated in your body and in your life.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 37:54
You were doing fine, though. You didn't have the straw that broke the camel's back, which is essential—what ends up happening to so many people who end up with chronic fatigue. That straw happens. It was the introduction of the spike protein, whether it's by vaccination or whether it's by the actual infection itself. Consequently, the body is not able to remove it because of the toxic five that are present and are occupying the immune system and the detox pathway. It’s really important to make sure that those are also being addressed, because that's what I'm seeing that's being missed right now. Then, of course, the microclots and making sure that you're using some natural… We like natural fibrinolytics in order to make sure that the processes of the body that need to work are working better.
Dr. Jill 38:43
Thank you. And thanks for being so matter of fact, because you and I know there are tests out there to show this endothelial disruption—the spike protein persistent in the atypical macrophages. This is very real—science-based. We know now, and we know that it can be treated as well. So I'm glad that you're including that, because I think it takes one more layer, even though you've got the foundation there.
Dr. Jill 39:07
Let's just say it this way: What would you like to tell your younger self if you could go back during medical school or right before medical school? What do you know now that you wish you would have known then?
Dr. Evan Hirsch 39:21
I think I would just say: Keep being curious. I think that I wouldn't have really done things differently. I believe that everything has a purpose. If I hadn't had chronic fatigue, I wouldn't be specializing in it and helping other people. My mess became my message. So I think that [it's about] continuing to be curious. I think I would have taught myself my mindset practice: Having gratitudes every day. Envisioning my ideal day. Looking at any sort of limiting beliefs that I have, flipping them into empowering beliefs or affirmations and reprogramming my brain and then asking myself more powerful questions every day, like: How can I love myself more today? Or, what do I need to do today to grow in different ways? I think that's probably what I would teach myself.
Dr. Jill 40:18
I couldn't agree more because all those functional medicine things are like the foundation of healing. Then the next level is the trauma, the mindset, the power of positive thinking, the self-love and trusting in our intuition—all those pieces you just said. So I'm glad we both landed there and now you're teaching.
Dr. Jill 40:34
If people want to know more, where can they find your book? I think you've got an upcoming program. Share with us whatever you have coming up that people might be interested in.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 40:43
I'm at EnergyMDMethod.com. If you want to text me directly, you can. There's a little text bubble at the bottom right-hand corner there. If you want to get on a free 20-minute call to see if we're a good fit to work together, we can do that as well. You can see me all over social media. We've got a podcast that Jill's been on. And then you can also click on the button for the book, which will take you to Amazon.
Dr. Jill 41:07
Awesome. Thank you for the work that you've done! Thank you for taking your suffering and turning it into profound healing for so many people. And thank you for coming on the show and sharing your heart.
Dr. Evan Hirsch 41:17
Thank you, Jill. Thanks for having me on.
Dr. Jill 41:20
You're welcome.
Share: