Welcome to another episode of Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan. In this episode, we dive deep into the topic of battling Lyme Disease in a moldy home with our special guest, Andi Hembroff. Lyme Disease is a complex and often misunderstood illness, and its connection to mold exposure is an area that needs more attention. Dr. Jill Carnahan, a renowned expert in functional medicine, shares her expertise on this important topic.

Andrea Hembroff, a Lyme Disease survivor, joins us to share her personal journey of battling this illness while living in a moldy home. She opens up about the challenges she faced, the impact it had on her health, and the steps she took to regain her wellness.

Key Points

• Mold related illness may significantly be impacting your mood and may cause depression or anxiety.
• It's important to assess the entire building and decide what you will do if you find mold in your home before spending money on testing
• All of our experiences have value if we view them as a teacher

Our Guest – Andi Hembroff

Andrea “Andi” Hembroff is an indoor environmentalist and the Director of education at Green Home Solutions Company. She works as an advocate for those navigating toxic mold and other environmental illnesses by guiding them through finding a proper inspector, interpreting reports, and finding an appropriate doctor.

Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD

Dr. Jill Carnahan is Your Functional Medicine Expert® dually board certified in Family Medicine for ten years and in Integrative Holistic Medicine since 2015. She is the Medical Director of Flatiron Functional Medicine, a widely sought-after practice with a broad range of clinical services including functional medical protocols, nutritional consultations, chiropractic therapy, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, and massage therapy.

As a survivor of breast cancer, Crohn’s disease, and toxic mold illness she brings a unique perspective to treating patients in the midst of complex and chronic illness. Her clinic specializes in searching for the underlying triggers that contribute to illness through cutting-edge lab testing and tailoring the intervention to specific needs. 

A popular inspirational speaker and prolific writer, she shares her knowledge of hope, health, and healing live on stage and through newsletters, articles, books, and social media posts! People relate to Dr. Jill’s science-backed opinions delivered with authenticity, love and humor. She is known for inspiring her audience to thrive even in the midst of difficulties.

Featured in Shape Magazine, Parade, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, First for Women, Townsend Newsletter, and The Huffington Post as well as seen on NBC News and Health segments with Joan Lunden, Dr. Jill is a media must-have. Her YouTube channel and podcast features live interviews with the healthcare world’s most respected names. 

The Podcast

The Video

The Transcript

187: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Battling Lyme Disease in a Moldy Home with Andi Hembroff

Dr. Jill  00:12
Welcome to Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill, your go-to podcast for the most cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm Dr. Jill, and on each episode, you'll hear a deep dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research and practice, and most importantly, how to be more resilient. 

Today, our guest is Andi. Andi, welcome to the show. 

Andi Hembroff  00:39
Hi! Thanks for having me, Jill.

Dr. Jill  00:41

You're so welcome! Andi is an indoor environmentalist and the director of education at the Green Home Solutions company. She works as an advocate for those navigating toxic mold and other environmental illnesses by guiding them through finding a proper inspector, interpreting reports, and finding an appropriate doctor. 

Dr. Jill  00:59

First of all, I am so happy you're here! And we just started a few minutes before. I was like: “Oh, we've got to record because I know this conversation is going to be so great for those listening.” We have so many people who've been through Lyme [disease], mold illness, and all of this. Why don't you start by just telling us a little bit about your journey?—because you've been through a lot yourself to get to this place. 

Andi Hembroff  01:18
I have. Thank you. My education is in the sciences, much like you. I wanted to practice medicine, but I wanted to provide something different. In school, I excelled in the sciences, so it made sense to practice medicine. That's what I set out to do originally. But I wanted to do something different; I wanted to be a doctor who asked about what you ate.

Andi Hembroff  01:44
I met my husband late in life, and I was a full-time pre-med student at the time. We decided to start our family because that was important to me. When our daughter was two, she developed lead poisoning from our rental home in Minneapolis. Mother's intuition, a miracle, or whatever you want to call it—I caught it right away, and we purchased our first home. We purchased our first home in October of 2017. I'm also a Midwest girl. We found a cute little house, a very modest house. We had it inspected and we moved in. 

Andi Hembroff  02:24
About a year after being in the house, my health started to decline. It started out as seemingly unrelated things—tinnitus, ringing in my ears, migraines, brain fog. After being in the house for two years, it progressed to dementia-like symptoms and seizure-like episodes. It was pretty profound. What we discovered was that I had neurological Lyme disease. They think that I've had Lyme disease since I was about 14. We started an out-of-pocket treatment protocol, which was expensive. I did that for about a year with no improvement. During that time, I was unable to work. I had crippling anxiety that was not typical for me and a lot of pains. It was very odd and I never got better. And then we ran out of money.  

Andi Hembroff  03:27
A woman on Facebook reached out to me. I was in all these Lyme groups, and I was trying to connect. And because I had the pre-med side, I really researched; I read everything that I could read. I started connecting the Lyme and mold connection. A woman online reached out to me and said: “You're not getting better because you're living in mold.” I said: “No, I'm not. My mom sold us this house. She's a realtor. We had it inspected. I keep a really clean house.” 

Andi Hembroff  03:59
I remember that I traveled. I went down to see my best friend, and I came home and walked in the door. And 10 minutes later, I realized that it was environmental. We started diving into that. What we found was that we had just a little bit of visible mold. But the hidden mold was substantial. By the time we realized that mold was a factor, we were tapped out. It was during the pandemic. We have three kids. My husband and I have so much love in our marriage. I love my husband to pieces, and we are so blessed, but money has never been one of our blessings. We were tapped out. 

Andi Hembroff  04:43
During this time, I was really struggling. I knew what I was faced with. In March of 2020, I rewrote my life insurance policy. I tripled the coverage and I read the fine print. I thought: “If I don't get better, I can't do this anymore.” I love life. I have a wonderful husband and three beautiful kids. And I love the mundane. But I was suffering so much that I didn't want to be here. I started writing letters. They were goodbye letters. This is where my book comes into play. I said: “Listen, this is either going to turn into a book where I got through it, or these are going to be my goodbye letters.” 

Andi Hembroff  05:34
We finally figured it out. I said to my husband, “It's the house.” My husband, bless his heart, was just like, ‘Okay.' We moved out to a tent in our backyard and lived in that tent for three months. We had two kids, ages four and six. My oldest, with whom I shared custody, stayed with his father. We lived in that tent for three months with our two kids and two little dogs. It's there that I started reading. I started reading everything I could on mold remediation, indoor air quality, and mold toxicity. You name it, I read it.  

Andi Hembroff  06:12
At first, it was tough for me because I had dementia-like symptoms, which is pretty scary. I thought my oldest son was my little brother. I couldn't forget my kids' names. But I had caught on to brain rewiring, which is, by the way, a big part of my story. My brain was so far gone. It was weird because I knew it. I was stuck in my head, but I was like a third-party observer. I knew I was at high risk for dementia and Alzheimer's due to neurological Lyme. 

Andi Hembroff  06:52

I started reading as a neuroplasticity exercise. I would read every day and do a puzzle every day. I tried to change my routine—things that promote neuroplasticity. It was tough. I would read the same sentence—I'm not exaggerating—20 or 30 times. But I kept at it because I was reading about how to empower my family. We didn't have money to hire an indoor environmentalist or a mold remediation company. We were tapped out. I kept reading. I read an astounding amount of books that year. It's really incredible. I kept a list and it's pretty unbelievable. 

Andi Hembroff  07:35
Michael Pinto of Wonder Makers Environmental is an educator. I sent him an email one night at 2:00 in the morning. I said: “I'm living in a tent. This is my story.” He responded and he sent me a textbook. He sent me a used textbook on mold contamination. I read it cover to cover. It's on my desk right now. 

Andi Hembroff  07:56

I eventually recovered. We remediated our home on credit cards. We were moments away from losing the house. I thought: “This is what I want to do. I want to help people.” I reached out to a local business owner. I went in and didn't have a resume because I have no history in this industry. I said, “I've read these books in the last year.” I dazzled him, and I chased him down for two months. I said: “Listen, you're going to hire me. And if you don't, I'm going to show up at your doorstep.” His exact words were: “You are weird, but okay.”

Dr. Jill  08:35
It's the power of persistence, right?

Andi Hembroff  08:36
Right! And he's a smart man. He did hire me. For the past two years, I've developed my own role in his company because he was like: “Here I have this hyper-sensitive individual. What the heck am I going to do with her in my organization?” My first day was literally like: “Here's your desk. I have no idea what you're going to do.” In the last two years, I've developed my role. I act as a client advocate. Mold remediation and environmental illness are very personal to me. 

Andi Hembroff  09:09

This is going to sound weird, but when we were looking at houses, I dreamt about this house. And the day that we were going to see it, I said to my husband: “We're going to buy our house today. It's listed at this price. It's owned by a single man.” My husband laughed at me. He said: “We're seeing two houses today and you haven't liked anything.” I always thought that God led me to this house. When I got sick, I got really mad at God. And of course, now I see the big picture. This industry is very important to me. It's very personal. 

Andi Hembroff  09:47

For the company that I work for now, I offer very personal aspects. I guide people through it. I'm the director of education. I understand how important proper remediation is. I really love environmental testing. I was a microbiology major. I am phasing out of my current position. After reading your book, I have decided to start my own business. I love the crew I'm working with now. I love my team. But I was there to learn. I've learned what I needed to, and I'm starting my own business.

Dr. Jill  10:26

Amazing!

Andi Hembroff  10:28

I got the business name from your book, Unexpected. I was reading it, and a word kept coming out at me. It's ‘align'. So my new business venture is going to be Align Mold Consulting. I have a wonderful business partner—somebody who God put in my life. Our goal is to align our clients with appropriate professionals who are dedicated to healing environmental illnesses. 

Andi Hembroff  10:54

Environmental illnesses are terribly devastating, and they're financially exhaustive. You have to diagnose your environment. You have to heal your environment. You have to diagnose your body. You have to heal your body. You have all these steps, and they're all out of pocket.

Dr. Jill  11:11
And people really need an advocate. I want to go back to a few parts of your story that are so key. Number one, you said [that there was] this overwhelm in the beginning. I just want to talk about that briefly because I think that for so many people in your situation, the first thing is overwhelm. And mold makes that worse by hijacking our brain. When our brain has cognitive issues, it's using more resources, which means that every little task takes more energy and [contributes to] that overwhelm. And I want to acknowledge what you said because that's so common to people. 

Dr. Jill  11:45
Tell a little about that—when you first realized the gravity of what was happening and also the lack of resources. First of all, I love that you went out and did… “Well, what can we do? Well, we can go live in the tent.” That's amazing.

Andi Hembroff  11:57
It was fun for us. It was very bougie. It was very nice. But I was sick. My kids were so little. It was during the pandemic. It was like, “School's not safe.” I don't get emotional until I talk about my kids. But we were telling them that school wasn't safe. They couldn't go to the grocery store. And then it was your house isn't safe, your toys.

Dr. Jill  12:19
During COVID, you mean that all of a sudden, they couldn't go places.

Andi Hembroff  12:24
By the way, in your book, you mentioned something and I cried. Then I called my husband at work and I said: “Oh my God! Dr. Jill just said this.” I kept calling my husband. I was driving him nuts. My husband works in grocery, and I kept calling him. I was like: “Oh my gosh! Dr. Jill said this.” You said that when you had a mold exposure, even with all your knowledge, it was like, [makes tossing behind motion]. By the way, the week that I read your book, I was overdoing it. I am also a people pleaser. You and I are so much alike, except I'm more type A than type C. I overdid it so much that I thought I was having a heart attack. My husband almost called an ambulance. My business partner came over. I was fine. But then I realized that I had a mold exposure. 

Andi Hembroff  13:19
One thing that I talk about frequently and I've gotten some slack for it, [is that] mold can cause suicide ideation. For me, it did. Because I am an advocate and talk to people all over the US, I share this with people. I share it with them, not for sympathy but because I want to create a safe space. I want to start that dialogue. And I can't tell you how many times I've had grown men break down and say: “I've been feeling that way.” 

Andi Hembroff  13:54

I think this is ironic. One thing you should know about me is that I'm a mycology enthusiast. If you can see in my background, I have mushrooms everywhere. I love mushrooms. I was reading about fungi and mycelial networks long before I knew I was sick from mold. But it's interesting because what does mold do in nature? It decomposes. It makes sense that mold wants you to— 

Dr. Jill  14:17
Decompose, right? 

Andi Hembroff  14:19

Right?

Dr. Jill  14:20

Let's stop there, because this is so important. There are two things you mentioned that are so critical. First of all, just so our listeners know, I didn't plan that you would talk about the book. I'm so grateful that you are sharing. But I love what you do and that it's impacted you. And I hope that more people will feel that, whether through talking to you, reading my book, or any resources out there. When you're out there suffering with this, the biggest part is that you feel alone, isolated, and crazy. It's very, very difficult. I just want to acknowledge that. And I want to thank you.

Andi Hembroff  14:48
And that's so common. If you feel like you're losing your mind…

Dr. Jill (pre-recording)  14:53
Hey, everybody. I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected: Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science, and Faith, is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming a life-threatening illness and the tools, tips, tricks, hope, and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein-Barr, and mold- and biotoxin-related illnesses. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by ReadUnexpected.com. There, you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine and finding resilience.

Dr. Jill  15:49

Yes. Let's talk briefly. You mentioned the book, and you mentioned your experience. I've been doing this for years. I'm the mold expert, right? But still, if I walk into a moldy building, I will start feeling overwhelmed, sad, maybe anxious, and, once in a while, really dark. Mold will tend to steal the insight cognitively. Insight is your ability to realize, in real-time, what's happening. I just want to be really clear for those listening: Mold will sabotage that. For example, in December, I was traveling to speak in hotels and one of them was very moldy. During that trip, I remember that I was waking up to do a book signing and speak. I love these things! But I got up in the morning—I was in bed—and was like: “I can't do it today. I can't get out of bed. I can't face these people.” 

Dr. Jill  16:41

That's not me! I love what I do! I love, love speaking, talking to people, and signing books. But that morning, I felt so down, so overwhelmed, and so exhausted. Well, of course! Two days later, I was like: “Oh, they were doing construction in the hallway.” I got a massive mold hit. As soon as I took charcoal, I felt better. In that moment of waking up and feeling miserable—I couldn't perform or get out of bed that day—I did not think: “Oh, this must be mold. I'll be okay.” All I thought was, “This is terrible, I'm falling apart,” and that the world was ending. I want to say that because over and over again, even with me, who knows mold—I know how to recover from it, I know how to get well quickly from it—I still have times where I get exposed and in the moment don't realize it. I think that's very important because it does mess with the emotions a lot.

Andi Hembroff  17:32

It does. I'm so glad you mentioned this in the book. That was one of the points where I cried because I get it. I work in mold remediation. I've had countless and even obvious exposures, but I don't put the pieces together until a couple of days later. I'm lucky because I have a supportive husband. One thing that I see a lot of times in my work is: “Well, my wife is sick, but I'm fine.” Mold is everywhere. And that's one of my superpowers, by the way, is getting both spouses on board because I'm very pragmatic. I have a way of explaining things. But that's the same for me.

Dr. Jill  18:13
Let's pause really quick, Andi. That's important. Let's role-play for a second, because it's the same thing for those listening. Some of them might be sharing it with a spouse who doesn't… Say there's this situation; you walk in. I've had this in my office too. The husband and wife are sitting there. It could be either party, but for example, let's say the wife is sick with autoimmunity, mold-related illness, and maybe infections and is not doing well. She's certain there is a toxic exposure in her home. Maybe she has evidence. The husband's sitting there, arms crossed, and he thinks his wife is crazy. He thinks: “I don't know what is wrong with her. Everywhere we go, she gets sick. She's not well.” What would you say to this couple? What would you say to the spouse who doesn't believe there's a real issue?

Andi Hembroff  18:53
I have this conversation every day. Usually, it ends with: “Can I set up a paid inspection?” There's a lot to it, and this is part of the reason why mold is unregulated. Mold is very biodiverse, and not all mold is the same. We wouldn't be here without mold. Fungi is incredible. But it becomes problematic when you have mold inside the building envelope. The molds that we are most concerned with as indoor environmentalists are water-damaged molds. These are molds that are indicative of water damage. Typically, these are the genera that are associated with toxigenic species and things like that. 

Andi Hembroff  19:36

First of all, nobody should be living in mold, period. If you're not sick, good for you. It means that you have a healthy immune system. You're just carrying out those toxins. You're carrying them out quicker than you can fill your toxic bucket. I have Lyme disease. My toxic bucket fills up quite quickly. People have pre-genetic dispositions and autoimmune disorders. Women are more at risk than men. It's usually women who are sick. Not always, but usually it's the wife who's sick. In my home, it was myself and my daughter. The boys were pretty okay. 

Andi Hembroff  20:12

First of all, environmental illnesses are really tough because not everybody's affected the same [way]. And that's what we thought. We thought: “Well, if it was environmental, everybody would be sick.” Our dog, by the way, was the first to die. And we had no idea. It was a neurological disorder. So you have that biodiversity. And that is part of why there are no threshold limit values and no regulation. Then you have varying hypersensitivity. People like me can't be around any mold. My husband is totally fine in this house. However, with the previous homeowners of my home, the wife died of liver and lung cancer at 56. That's why the gentleman was selling his house, by the way. Maybe she wasn't hypersensitive like me, but she was constantly exposed. I'm not a doctor, but in my opinion, cancer is end-stage mold toxicity. 

Andi Hembroff  21:07

I feel very grateful that I was hypersensitive. Folks are like: “Oh, I'm so sorry that you're sick like that.” I'm not. I feel like it was a gift from God because I saved my children from being exposed to these things. Right away, my body said that something was not right. There's a lot going on. But hypersensitivity is very real. And maybe the husband's not sick yet, but eventually, his toxic bucket is going to fill up and then he will be sick. The way I get them on board is by talking about how you should go about diagnosing the house and what that means. 

Andi Hembroff  21:48

A lot of times in the industry, with mold inspectors and mold remediators, where people get taken advantage of is fearmongering. You should be aware, but you have to be pragmatic about it. Mold is a symptom of moisture. There's a right way to go about testing and fixing a house, and there's a wrong way. That's usually where I connect with husbands. 

Andi Hembroff  22:13

It's wildly misunderstood. I lost a lot of friends. I lost a lot of family members. I was crazy. And I was. I was suicidal. I was out of my mind. When we're sick, who are our safe people? Our family, right? They see the worst. Some of them just left and never came back. It's so important to have a spouse who's on board. Maybe I didn't have money, but my husband saved my life. I know he didn't believe me. He said: “Okay. You want to live out in a tent. Okay.” “We have to gut the basement. Okay.” [laughs]

Dr. Jill  23:02
That's amazing, because you just need an ally who is there. My ex-husband and I talk about this very openly; we produced a movie about it together. But one of the things that happened prior to our divorce was that his Lyme became very active. He was shooting a film in Virginia. I got into [inaudible] and had a lot of trauma that came up with that. I was very ill. And I was very, very sick with mold. We were not connecting. We were both almost traumatized because of the illness and we couldn't go to that level. What happens with mold often as well is that you isolate because you have limited resources. You go to the core of who's there. For me, it was just survival with keeping the clinic going, going home, going to bed, and doing it again. I didn't have a lot of social life. I certainly couldn't go out of my way to take care of my husband's needs, nor could he for mine. And if we look back now and are really honest, that was 80% of the cause of our divorce. God redeemed it because we are great friends and learned through that.

Andi Hembroff  24:04
I can tell from your book that you love Aaron. I can feel that. I believe that God puts people in our lives, not always for keeps.

Dr. Jill  24:15
Right. And now we both say that this awakening happened and we are much better people for it. We're with different partners. But the truth is, that was a real catalyst. The mold-related illness was a catalyst for the breakdown of our relationship. And like you said, thank goodness you've had a husband who's incredibly supportive because many people out there listening have been through this and they don't have spouses that support them. And like you mentioned as well, your home should be safe. And the thing that should be the safest place for you is unsafe. Even if you think here, “Okay, well, I can figure it out and make it safe,” your body is like: No, no, no, it's not safe. So your safety mechanisms are alarmed. And then if that relationship that's supposed to be safe for you—your partner, your loved one, your parents, or your children—is like, “No, you're crazy, there's something wrong with you,” it makes it even more—

Andi Hembroff  25:04
You touched on two things in your book that are near and dear to my heart. I'm starting this consulting business—Align Mold Consulting. I'm not looking to make a ton of money there. I'm trying to figure out other ways to trickle money in. I've never been a woman who wanted to be rich, but I do want some nice roller skates. [laughs] You love to roller skate. But my initiative and goal is connecting. I'm a unicorn; I know a little bit about everything. I was pre-med. I'm an indoor environmentalist. I can do inspections. I read a ton. Growing up, I was not a farm girl, though I'm a Midwest girl. But I roofed houses, greased dump trucks, and worked on cars and road motorcross. I'm the Jill of all trades [inaudible]. 

Dr. Jill  25:55

I love it! [laughs]

Andi Hembroff  25:57

What I try to do is connect doctors with indoor environmentalists. And people are like: “Oh yes, functional medicine, functional medicine.” Yes, but mental health providers, social workers, neurologists—all of the things. You mentioned a client that you had. For three of the tenants who lived in her unit previously, there were two homicides and one suicide. That's the moment when I stopped and I cried in the book. I put the book down and I said to my husband… God bless his soul. He has heard so many indoor air quality factoids. The guy is just beaming with knowledge. But we have to reach these people because we're treating mental illness. We've got people dying and committing suicide and nobody's connecting the dots. All doctors, neurologists, functional doctors, mental health providers, and even social workers—everybody—what are you eating? And have you been exposed to a water-damaged building?

Dr. Jill  27:15
I could not agree more, Andi. I'm a doctor saying this: I believe that most causes of depression, bipolar anxiety, and mental illness have an organic root cause. This doesn't mean it's your fault. Don't hear me saying that. It can happen to you. But the truth is, often, even with genetics, or if you're more predisposed to something, there is some environmental [factor]. I always say it's a toxic load and an infectious burden. Those two things together create inflammation. Just like your body, your brain gets inflamed just the same, and you can have overproduction or underproduction of neurotransmitters like norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin, or any other number of neurotransmitters. These are massively affected. 

Dr. Jill  27:57

When we look at PubMed studies, there's a cytokine called IL-6. Hundreds of studies associate the elevation of this cytokine, which is immune activation, with depression, anxiety, and even suicidality. We have the documentation. And now we know that the gut microbiome is also affected by mold. That's a whole other lecture, but the truth is, I just want to validate that a lot of times, this mental illness is part of the toxic load. And when people realize that it shouldn't make you feel guilty, it should give you an onus to have the ability to get well and feel better. Even now, if I get exposed to mold, I [will] have more anxiety or mood issues. But we can fix that if we get out of the exposure.

Andi Hembroff  28:41
I would agree with that. I love neuroscience. On my desk right now is The Inflamed Brain, which connects mental illness with inflammation in the brain. I'm reading a book by Dale Bredersen, who's got the Bredersen Protocol. I read a lot about neuroscience. Yes, I'm an indoor environmentalist, I'm in the indoor sciences, but my heart is in the neurosciences.

Dr. Jill  29:07
But that's how you presented—I mean, you presented with cognitive decline. We call it either mild dementia or early cognitive decline.

Andi Hembroff  29:21
Another thing in your book, the way that you talked about science and faith, was a way I've always talked about it. And I've never heard anybody else say that. Again, I stopped, I cried and I called my husband. I was like, “Oh my gosh, you'll never believe… ” I was like: “Listen to this. Listen to this.” And I read to him. I said, “Who does that sound like?” He said, “That sounds like you.” I think that God gave me a special gift because I was a very intelligent woman, but I was stuck. I was stuck in my brain. 

Andi Hembroff  29:51

And some people who have listened to my interviews and have known me a long time have no idea I was as sick as I was. They have no idea, because I'm a lot like you, “Everything's fine.” And I didn't understand it. I didn't understand it, so I felt weak and crazy. And I was told that. I had family members who were like: “You're insane. You need mental health.” I did because I had inflammation in my brain. And that's important.

Dr. Jill  30:20
I love that you're saying that, though, because that's part of it. Like I was saying, right after the worst of my mold, I was so isolated. What happens is that you go into survival mode because all you can do is do the basic daily stuff. And in that survival place, it's hard to make the extra energy and effort to connect. Part of this toxic effect is going inward because you don't have enough resources. I remember that in the worst of it, engaging in a 30-minute conversation was so exhausting. That was just too much. Or going out to dinner—the lights, the sound, the noise—everything was too much.

Andi Hembroff  30:57
Yes, sound sensitivity and light sensitivity. I have ADD now, which I never had before, which you mentioned in your book as well.

Dr. Jill  31:04
Yes. These things all affect you. So if you are suffering, this is normal. But the worst thing you can do is isolate [yourself] and let those thoughts take you to a dark place. I want to talk briefly about unexpected miracles, which was the real title, because you mentioned one that I think is so important—and I can relate even recently—about how you had this insight before you saw your house. It was by this man. There are a few things and you ended up buying that house. Deep in your heart, you feel like this was meant to be. Then you find out about the mold. You were like, “How in the world?” And even your anger at God and that whole feeling, I think that's important to acknowledge because sometimes I think the things that come into our lives seem so awful, and we're like: “How in the world?” And whether you believe in God or not, we're angry and we're angry at something. 

Dr. Jill  31:53

I want to tell you a personal story that just happened last week. I've got a broken arm. I was praying and meditating this last month of January when we're recording here about how to be deliberate and slow down. I've been going at mach speed with a book and a documentary last year and all these wonderful things. And like you, I love my life. I am so blessed. But the speed at which I was going was unsustainable. I was praying and meditating on: How do I slow down and be more deliberate and say no to some things that I'm saying yes to and do obligations? 

Dr. Jill  32:31

The long story short is that I break my arm. I could be really angry, but it slowed me down in a hurry. My physical self was like: “This sucks. This is painful. This is inconvenient.” Everything I do now takes three or four times as long. I'm exhausted. There are a lot of effects from it. But on a spiritual level, the moment I looked down and saw my arm—and I knew it was broken from the moment I fell down my roller skates—I had this sense of: “Oh, I'm going to have to slow down now.” 

Dr. Jill  33:06

There was the tiniest bit of me that was relieved. Isn't that bizarre? And yet it's not because I feel like the Divine has a way of using difficulty, suffering, and things that are so awful. And I would never wish it on anyone, but if we can as we're facing tragedy, hardship, suffering, and illness, start to say, “What is this here to teach me?” If we can reframe there like you did—and I'm doing it every day that I can—it really does change things. So often, when we look back a year, two, or four… I look back at my mold experience—it was horrible! But it made me the mold expert. I would never be the doctor I am without that experience. The same with you. 

Andi Hembroff  33:51
And honestly, I'm not trying to kiss your butt. [laughs] I was supposed to read your book last week because I've been doing the same thing, praying for a change. I love my position—the job I'm working at now—but I got into it to learn. I'm not making very much, and it's been very stressful. I was burning out, and it was affecting my health. I've also known throughout the years that God has a sense of humor. And I've gotten wiser with my praying, like: “Okay, Lord, I need money. But can it not involve a car accident or an injury?” 

Dr. Jill  34:32

“Be gentle!” [laughs]

Andi Hembroff  34:35

Right? I liked what you said too about the mindset. As an advocate, and I am sure that you can relate to this, it's exhausting. I talk with a lot of people. Some people are so stuck in these limbic system loops and are very negative and very negative and very negative. I try to tell them: “Just take a step forward. Just take a step forward. You have to think differently.” Also, if you're listening to this and you're struggling, look into brain rewiring. It's not just cognitive behavior therapy; it's not manifesting. It is very physiological. You cannot separate the brain from your body. If your brain thinks it's in a state of fight or flight, you're not going to heal there. It's paramount. 

Andi Hembroff  35:25

By the way, you had a list of books like, “Read all of these books.” The first book was by Stanley Rosenberg on the polyvagal theory, which is my favorite book. I have three copies of it. I love it. I love that book. Anyway, you had a reading list. I said, “Read it, read it, read it.” And that was paramount. 

Andi Hembroff  35:48

So you have to really change your thinking. That's really tough to do because mold, just like we said, puts you in that place of despair. It's okay. Be there. Feel those things. Be there. But then pick yourself up and walk out of there. Even if it's just a small step, take a step forward.

Dr. Jill  36:09
Let's pause there real quick. There's something so important that you just said. Often, trauma causes us to fight, flight, or freeze. Granted, mold can cause us to be angry and fight. It can cause us to freeze or run away. But the freeze part is common. And when you're in that frozen state, feeling like you're helpless or can't do anything, one of the ways to activate your system to recover is to move. One of the ways is what you just mentioned, when you're talking to someone, can you take the next step? Literally or figuratively, can you do something? As you move forward towards an answer—even if it's a very small step, like calling an inspector, or maybe it's calling a friend—those moments will start to take you out of the freeze. Another thing you can do is walk. That peripheral movement past your eyes is a very healing and soothing thing that can take you out of a freeze. So often, I just go for long walks.

Andi Hembroff  37:07
And get outside. Get outside and look up at the sky. You mentioned something, and I want to touch on this before our time ends. If you suspect that you are being affected by mold, you have to be careful of your steps. The biggest mistake I see folks make is collecting data points when trying to diagnose a home. For example, a lot of people will start with an ERMI test. I'm personally not a fan of ERMI. It's a whole other segment. But when you are deciding to allocate resources to test your environment, you have to have an objective in mind and a plan. 

Andi Hembroff  37:52

That seems obvious, but I see a lot of people collect data points that say the same thing: You potentially have an unhealthy fungal ecology in your house. Well, cool; okay. But they keep collecting those data points and not working toward a diagnosis. It would be like repeatedly doing blood samples. “There might be disease in your body.” If you are faced with that decision, you have to identify an objective. 

Andi Hembroff  38:20

If you own your home, any testing or inspections that you allocate resources to should meet two objectives: 1) Identify sources of moisture, both past and present, if possible, and 2) identify what, if any, building material is affected. That seems obvious but people will spend all this money. A good look at a home should be holistic in nature. A home is a living and breathing entity of pathways. You have pressure differentials. And biological contaminants, such as fungi, can really proliferate. Fungi is amazing. It has a tenacious ability to produce life. You have to look at the whole home. And in my very humble opinion, the best first effort to make is to look at the house as a whole and take a direct approach. Look for moisture. If you can identify the moisture issues, you're going to identify the mold. 

Andi Hembroff  39:18

It's not that it doesn't matter, but don't get hung up on speciating this mold. Mycotoxin environmental testing—great. It's so encouraging. It's exciting. But it's expensive. It's expensive to acquire those data points. You want to have resources to diagnose your environment but then you have to heal that environment. Oftentimes, you have to replace your items. You have to invest in air purifiers. Then you have to diagnose and heal your body. So you can't put all your eggs in this basket. 

Andi Hembroff  39:52

Before you allocate any resources to testing your home, have a plan in mind. If you ever need help navigating that, that is my favorite topic to talk about. Every mold testing methodology has its limitations and strengths. You have to understand those to interpret the data points that they render. Then, because I'm an advocate and low on funds, I weigh that against the cost. Don't just jump in without knowing what you're doing. You wouldn't just try to diagnose your own body. Don't just try to diagnose your own home because you're going to spend a lot of money and it could be allocated somewhere else.

Dr. Jill  40:32
I could not agree more. I just want to reiterate. Often in clinical practice, a patient will bring a QPCR, an ERMI test, or some other testing. But the ideal thing is to have someone who knows what they're doing. Nowadays, there are even virtual types of inspections. What you alluded to as the core issue is knowing where the sources of water are and where the damage is. Even someone who isn't an inspector may know that their bathtub leaked or their shower isn't sealed properly. Often with patients—I am not the expert, I'm the doctor—by asking them about sources of water damage, leakage into the home, the attic, the crawl space, etc. (I could name 101 things), we can come to a conclusion about where likely sources could have been. And then, of course, you need an expert. You need someone who has the ability to help you remediate. But if you put all your eggs in any one test, that's not going to give you the data.

Andi Hembroff  41:32
Also, when you're vetting these professionals… I know these things, by the way, because I made all of these mistakes. Another thing: You should never commit to remediation without a good, solid diagnosis. That should involve looking at the whole house. We didn't. We remediated four times. But a good mold inspector should be somebody accredited through the ACAC or something in that capacity. They should know mold because different genera of mold tell different stories. They should be knowledgeable. Anybody can run a mold test but not everybody can interpret it. But equally important, if not more important, is also having a mold inspector who's very knowledgeable in the building sciences with a good, firm understanding of how that building envelope is constructed. And I like to say it's analogous to expecting a doctor to know the anatomy and physiology of a body. You want somebody who knows those building codes, where moisture can be hiding, and why it's there. My favorite inspectors are those who used to be general contractors.

Dr. Jill  42:35
Yes. I would totally agree because they know how a house is constructed and where things could go wrong. I'm a medical detective; you need a good house detective that is able to go through and look. I totally agree.

Andi Hembroff  42:50
You start zoomed out. You look at the whole house. You look for moisture with non-invasive tools. They should be using mold testing with thermal imaging, moisture meters—a good, thorough visual inspection—and a good flashlight. And those more expensive or invasive methodologies should be reserved for secondary. 

Andi Hembroff  43:13

For example, I've had clients who say, “I don't feel good in this house.” Then I'll go into the house and I don't feel good there either. And our inspection—which is great, it's non-invasive—just doesn't pick up on the issue. That's when you want to bring in those secondary efforts. Maybe it's a mold dog, exploratory remediation, or these big, heavy-duty tests. But you have to be smart about it. And that's what I love to help folks do. 

Dr. Jill  43:43
Amazing! It's a beautiful testimony of what you have done, [turning] tragedy into triumph and all these things I talk about all the time: True resilience. You are representing that well. And it's exciting to hear the direction that you're hoping to go. If people want to know more or want to find you, where can they find you?

Andi Hembroff  44:04
We are building our website right now. It's going to be AlignMoldConsulting.com. I'm on Facebook as well. That's going to be my next endeavor. I'm going to start my own business, which terrifies me but that's what we're going to do.

Dr. Jill  44:21
I can't wait! We'll have to check in a year or so. For anyone listening, we will put resources below, wherever you're listening to this. Andi, thank you for taking your difficulties and turning them into knowledge, passion, and purpose. You've been through a lot but it's obvious to see that it's being used to help people and restore lives just like yours has been restored. Any last bit of parting advice for those listening?

Andi Hembroff  44:48
No, I want to thank you for doing the same. I fell in love with you [after] reading your book. So if you haven't already, read Dr. Jill's book; you'll love her just as much as I do. So thank you for what you're doing and for trailblazing for women like me.

Dr. Jill  45:04
Aw, thank you so much, Andi!