In this captivating interview, Dr. Jill Carnahan sits down with renowned functional medicine expert, Dr. Kasia Kines, to dive deep into the mysterious world of the Epstein Barr Virus (EBV). If you've ever experienced unexplained fatigue or have been diagnosed with EBV, this video is a must-watch.

Key Points

1. EBV is opportunistic so you must first address the underlying nutrient deficiencies, toxicity, lack of rest, overwork and all the factors contributing to your weakened immune system
2. Supporting EBV starts with supporting your nutritional status with key nutrients, like selenium, zinc, vitamin C, Vitamin D3, NAC and others
3. Mold toxicity and EMF exposure are major contributing factors to reactivation of Epstein barr virus

Related Articles on EBV

• https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2022/08/04/can-epstein-barr-trigger-multiple-sclerosis-new-research-reveals-a-fascinating-link/
• https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2018/01/25/sleeping-giant-tips-treat-reactivation-epstein-barr-virus/
• https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2016/05/07/hidden-infection-causing-fatigue/

Related Products

EBV Bundle: https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/dr-jill-health-ebv-support-bundle/
L-Lysine: https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/lysine-1000/
Selenium: https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/activated-selenium-90-caps/
D3/K2: https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/vitamin-d3-k2-60caps/
Buffered C: https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/buffered-c-caps-90c/
NAC: https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/nac-500-60-caps/
Activated Zinc: https://www.drjillhealth.com/product/activated-zinc-60-caps/

The Guest – Dr. Kasia Kines

Dr. Kasia Kines – http://www.ebvonlineprogram.com/
Dr. Kines is the CEO and Founder of EBV Global Institute. She is an authority on recovery therapy for chronic Epstein-Barr Virus, author, wellness expert, and a highly respected doctor of clinical nutrition. Since 2005, Dr. Kines has built an international reputation as a functional nutritionist, from being sought after by Johns Hopkins University to the ground-breaking Amazon best-seller book Epstein-Barr Virus Solution.

Dr. Kines has developed the only proven and evidence-based methodology for a complete long-term recovery from EBV. She has been teaching a highly effective EBV Recovery Program for people suffering from this virus and provides turn-key trainings for medical doctors and other practitioners.

Dr. Kasia Kines consumer recovery program: https://www.ebvonlineprogram.com/purchase
Dr. Kasia Kines Practitioner Program (turn-key): https://go.ebvhelp.com/ebv-practitioner-workshop
Dr. Kasia Kines4 months practitioner mentorship//certification Program: https://go.ebvhelp.com/certification-program

Dr. Jill

Dr. Jill Carnahan is Your Functional Medicine Expert® dually board certified in Family Medicine for ten years and in Integrative Holistic Medicine since 2015. She is the Medical Director of Flatiron Functional Medicine, a widely sought-after practice with a broad range of clinical services including functional medical protocols, nutritional consultations, chiropractic therapy, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, and massage therapy. As a survivor of breast cancer, Crohn’s disease, and toxic mold illness she brings a unique perspective to treating patients in the midst of complex and chronic illness. Her clinic specializes in searching for the underlying triggers that contribute to illness through cutting-edge lab testing and tailoring the intervention to specific needs. 

A popular inspirational speaker and prolific writer, she shares her knowledge of hope, health, and healing live on stage and through newsletters, articles, books, and social media posts! People relate to Dr. Jill’s science-backed opinions delivered with authenticity, love and humor. She is known for inspiring her audience to thrive even in the midst of difficulties.

Featured in Shape Magazine, Parade, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, First for Women, Townsend Newsletter, and The Huffington Post as well as seen on NBC News and Health segments with Joan Lunden, Dr. Jill is a media must-have. Her YouTube channel and podcast features live interviews with the healthcare world’s most respected names. 

The Podcast

The Video

The Transcript

155: Dr. Jill interviews Dr. Kasia Kines on the secret life of Epstein Barr Virus (EBV)

Dr. Jill  0:12

Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Dr. Jill Live! At least here in Boulder, Colorado, it's a rainy afternoon. I am delighted to talk to Dr. Kasia Kines today, and I'll introduce her in just a moment. Many, many, many of you out there are dealing with chronic, complex illnesses, and one of the roots of much of the suffering is this virus, Epstein-Barr. Dr. Kines has become an expert, a teacher, and a trainer in this field. I'm super excited to pick her brain today. Like I said, in just a moment, I'll introduce her. 

Dr. Jill  0:49

But in the meantime, you can go watch any previous episodes on YouTube, iTunes, Stitcher—anywhere you see podcasts. And be sure to like, subscribe, and leave a review, because that helps us reach more people. 

Dr. Jill  1:02

Okay, so without further ado, Dr. Kines is the CEO and founder of EBV Global Institute. She is an authority on recovery therapy for chronic Epstein-Barr [virus and an] author. She's a wellness expert and a highly respected doctor of clinical nutrition. Since 2005, she has built an international reputation as a functional nutritionist, from being sought after by John Hopkins University to the ground-breaking Amazon bestseller book, Epstein-Barr Virus Solution. She's developed not only a proven and evidence-based methodology for a complete, long-term recovery from EBV, [but] she's [also] been teaching a highly effective EBV recovery program for people suffering from the virus and providing turn-key trainings for medical doctors and other practitioners. 

Dr. Jill  1:02

I love that you are an advocate for debunking all the misinformation out there. We're going to dive into some of that. And even though you and I had this wonderful dialogue by email before we got started—”What about this?” and you said, “Well, maybe I don't use this,” and “I love this”—we're going to pick your brain today. I could say so much more, but I want to get right into it. So first of all, welcome, welcome! Thank you for coming on the show!

Dr. Kasia Kines  2:04

I am so honored! I am so honored to finally meet you in person. So yes, I am delighted to be here. 

Dr. Jill  2:09

Yes. We all have a kind of story about how we got into this specific area. Tell us a little bit about your journey into clinical nutrition and then eventually into Epstein-Barr. How did you get to where you are right now? 

Dr. Kasia Kines  2:24

I'm not a wounded healer. [laughing]

Dr. Jill  2:27

Good for you. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  2:28

But I had a very different career—very fulfilling. I moved to the States literally after my 30th birthday, which was 27 years ago, from Poland. Because I fell in love. So, after two years, that didn't work. I was approaching 33 and saying: “What do I have to do? What do I want to do when I grow up? I'm in a new culture, a new home, and a new life.” I literally moved with two suitcases, my guitar, my two hats, and my cat. And cassettes with music, and five bags that I made with books. That was my journey. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  3:07

So what I came up with was naturopathic medicine—just healing. I read a lot. I listened to a lot of alternative radio, which was from Colorado. Yes, that was awesome. In the '90s. I was teaching at a university in my previous career, but I was pursuing prerequisites. And one prerequisite for the ND program at Bastyr, I flipped in the segue the second I hit. “Hey, [inaudible], what am I doing?” The bottom line is that nutrition is the foundation and groundwork of medicine. So I flipped. I had another year of prerequisites. It was the best decision. So I did that training—a master's degree. I was lucky enough that I had a choice not to become a dietitian. Thank goodness, because now they don't have that choice anymore. Leadership has changed. The politics have changed. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  4:18

Just like you, on the trajectory, when we commit to clinical practice—I've always had a private practice for almost 20 years full-time—attention is like piano playing [where one is] constantly doing, constantly doing. And it probably happened to you; you get more and more complicated cases. Nobody wants to be called this, but that's what we call it. So I apologize to the audience, but “complicated cases” [arise] when you hone in on your skills, you're really good at what you do, and you both try your best. You're doing everything that functional medicine says. Even before functional medicine was a thing, we were doing the right thing, and I would hit the wall. And we would be frustrated together. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  5:00

I was grabbed by Hopkins, and Dr. Mullin was there. He was pioneering SIBO work, and I fell in love with gastroenterology. I was like, ‘Oh!' so that was exciting. I jumped into that. We worked together a lot and learned a lot about that aspect. That carried me through a number of years. But then there's more. You know, you follow the presentation. The presentations that were coming to me were more SIBO, autoimmunity—a bucket of mystery—but then also Hashimoto's. It's like one on top of the other, on top of the other, on top of the other. I was always asking the question: “What am I not seeing?”—because I was the last resort. There's a lot of pressure on us. If I can't do it, I'm worried [about]: “What's going to happen to this person?” 

Dr. Kasia Kines  5:55

But then I had a friend who, out of the blue, was completely diagnosed and ended up in the hospital with MS—it was one of my best friends—six months before I immigrated. So she fought that battle for… What was it, 15 years? And I was starting my life. Like, parallel lives. I'll never forget the last Christmas call I made when I could no longer understand what she was saying, so her son had to take over. So we lost her eventually to complications. I never said goodbye. He was afraid to tell me she was already gone. And I had this hole in my heart and always asked the question: “Why couldn't I help her? What was it?” 

Dr. Kasia Kines  6:44

And this EBV was kind of, ‘What?' Her son had heard about that. But at this point in her life, everything was already delayed. And before I immigrated, I was not a nutritionist, so it was like I missed that opportunity. But I always asked: “Why? What could be done? And what is it?” And I remember asking a colleague who is a medical intuitive: “I just need to know if this thing, EBV, was the triggering event.” We both experienced Chernobyl. We were in Poland—very close. I never had problems with my thyroid or anything, but I've been in the sun a lot. You probably know about MS and all that. You had an article on MS, and I had an article on MS. There was a study. So anyway, she said yes. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  7:40

And then my patients started to ask me about this book. “What is your educated opinion on this book?” First one, second one, third one. I had no life. I was overworked, and I was burning out. I was constantly working one-on-one. But I was flying to a conference. I was like: “I'll buy this darn book. I'll read it on the plane.” When I was sitting on the plane, if I could fall off my chair, I would, because these were the stories of the people I couldn't help and my friend Marlena. I was like, ‘Oh.' And this was the Medical Medium book. I was like, ‘Oh.' So I was like: “Oh, oh. If half of it is true, I'm going home, and I'm starting.” So that took me through thousands of pages of medical literature. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  8:25

I started with proper testing because the medical literature is very clear on testing. But testing is misinterpreted and misaligned. It's a hot mess. Just like Hashimoto's thyroid testing, it's a hot mess. So I had to create a protocol for testing that is evidence-based. Understanding is also tricky because it's counterintuitive. IgM and IgG—this is where thousands of people fall through the cracks, and they spend many more years trying to figure things out when doctors say it has nothing to do with EBV. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  9:03

We started to implement testing for all of the community that I was working with at that time. I started to see patterns—patterns are important, not in one person or two, but when they're repeated and repeated—and then more medical literature. Finally, I was pinching myself [and thinking]: “Why isn't anyone doing this? Like, why is it not on the table?” There was no training. “There's nothing out there! Nothing!” 

Dr. Jill  9:33

Even in our functional circles, it isn't talked about, right? There are very, very few people talking about the… Wow. You know, let's stop for a moment on testing, because I think that's critical. Let's talk a little bit about the testing. I do testing, but I want to hear your take on this and what the evidence shows as far as what panel they really need to do. And what does that mean? 

Dr. Kasia Kines  9:53

Yes. So I always like to zoom 30,000 miles and also confirm because I have the privilege to work with EBV constantly. I closed my one-on-one practice. This is all I do. You have to be in my program to work with me one-on-one because it's a hybrid [role] as a consultant. I constantly play this piano, so I see all these patterns, and clarity comes, right? Just like [it does for] you with mold or functional medicine. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  10:25

I'll start with a story because people remember those. And this is a good story. I was training. I called a nutritionist, and she says: “I have a classic presentation. I know it's chronic active EBV.” But her early antigen is negative, because early antigen buds up with reactivation. And then a couple of weeks, and then it goes. But it doesn't mean that after that, you're well. So the question that you ask is, “When did she take that test?” “January.” And then I said to her: “You need to ask her, where did she feel like that truck hit her over the head? When did she really tug?” “Thanksgiving.” Because when you tug, you take measures. You sleep. You do something. So early antigen normalizes, and then clinicians are confused. “Actually, nothing there, just the big two ones”—triple digits—”but these are past. They're not relevant,” and da, da, da. 

Dr. Jill  11:26

And just to be clear, you're talking [about] VCA-IgG and nuclear antigen, IgG, correct? 

Dr. Kasia Kines  11:31

Yes. The big ones that were tagged for life. They're never going to be zero if you have them. It's just not possible. This virus has been here for 10 million years. We're all carrying it. I carried it, and I didn't know until I got sick with mold two years ago. So that's a big one. IgM-VCA is very rarely positive. It shouldn't be because, if you look at the literature, it only spikes up in the initial infection. That's not the population we see. Some people—a very small percentage—always have it elevated, no matter when they test. So this is molecular mimicry. This is co-infections. This is a mess. There's a bucket. You need to look under the hood [and ask]: What else? 

Dr. Jill  12:21

I love this because that whole IgM thing is often triggered. And sometimes it's an actual total subclass of IgM that's elevated. And then you see these IgMs because of a toxin or infection trigger. So I totally agree. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  12:33

Yes. That is a very good point. If somebody thinks it's clear… And we have the book. We have the quiz. We have so many resources. And people have been reading medical mediums. So people are more like, “It matches my life.” But then maybe my numbers are all negative. This is a very good point, like you said too: You need to test your total IgG and total IgM antibodies because you may not even be producing anymore [since] you're so depleted. 

Dr. Jill  13:02

Yes. So for example, you have a common variable immune deficiency, which is an IgG deficiency, an IgM deficiency, or an IgA. But if you don't have enough of the subclasses, you're never going to mount a response, so you're not going to see it on the exact antibodies to this virus. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  13:19

No. And you know what they say: A good doctor treats a patient, not a lab. Every day I get emails about the labs. But I need context. I need to understand your life, your presentation, and your medical history. I need to see the whole picture to see where the labs fit. That's important. The one thing that I don't recommend is PCR. 

Dr. Jill  13:45

Yes. I agree with you. I love this because I'm so aligned. Now, let's talk about presentation really quickly, because I agree: You have to have the clinical picture plus the labs. And then you make a good decision, right? But describe the classical presentation of reactivation. I know there's a lot. But give us kind of [an idea] of what patients might think about this as an etiology if they're experiencing what symptoms. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  14:10

Number one, they can have autoimmunity. They can say: “I don't have any of these symptoms. I just have Hashimoto's.” Whoops. Hashimoto's—EBV is one of the driving forces. A causative factor. The very heavy fatigue, the fatigue that people can't explain—it's the fatigue when you can drag yourself out of bed to the kitchen, back to bed, and you're spent for the day. That's the kind of [inaudible] fatigue. That's one. Brain fog. People have concerns about cognitive decline. They can't process. They come to my program confused and exhausted. Sometimes they're in pain—sometimes joint pain, fibromyalgia, or they're diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. And then a laundry basket of all kinds of complaints, symptoms, and more autoimmune disorders. You see the patterns. I'm not easily surprised, but still, interstitial cystitis—I had no idea that they could ever even be related. But when you go to studies, there are some studies. Like, how is that… ? It's like I had to stop writing the book because it's such a big, fat book. But I kept reading and—

Dr. Jill  15:29

You keep finding more research, right? I know. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  15:30

Yes. The last thing I did was Crohn's and IBD. You had that story. It's like, “Nah… But I've worked with this. Well, why don't I just go to PubMed and check?” And I had a couple of studies. The same thing: About 60% and 61%, regardless of whether it's Crohn's or IBD, are originally triggered by EBV. By the time you have it, I haven't had good luck reverse-engineering it just by doing EBV work because that's like too far into it. And at that point, I stopped adding because it was like: “I can't deal with this. It's everywhere!” And it really is. 

Dr. Jill  16:12

It really is. That's why I love talking to you, because this is such a common underlying cause. 

Dr. Jill (pre-recording)  16:18

Hey, everybody. I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected: Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science, and Faith, is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming a life-threatening illness and the tools, tips, tricks, hope, and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein-Barr, and mold- and biotoxin-related illnesses. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by ReadUnexpected.com. There, you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine in finding resilience.

Dr. Jill  17:14

Let's divert just a moment, specifically because you told a story about your dear friend, who kind of allowed you to start in this realm. And we both wrote recently about the very large study [that examined] the association between MS and EBV. Do you want to talk just a little bit about that?

Dr. Kasia Kines  17:29

Yes. I was a little bit uneasy about the study. The study had a couple of weaknesses. And I addressed that in the blog. I have an extensive blog. 

Dr. Jill  17:14

We will link it if you're listening here or wherever you're listening. I'll be sure to link that blog here too. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  17:46

Thank you. I know you wrote about it. But I had to say that the message is that when you have EBV, it doesn't mean you're going to develop MS. Some of the trigger points… Like, I was always in the sun. I grew up in Poland, on the Baltic Sea, on the beach—a beach town. My mother would throw me out [into the water] naked. I was a kid, a little infant. Vitamin D is critical. I don't know that Marlena had that when she was growing up. That may be the difference. There are certain very important things that trigger MS. And some scientists say EBV is a prerequisite. You can't get it without EBV. But there's heavy metal toxicity. There are a lot of things in MS. We can't just make a blanket statement. 

Dr. Jill  18:33

Yes. Again, I couldn't agree more because it's always multifactorial. It's like a toxic load and infectious burden, and those two things play together to create… And Epstein-Barr is definitely, as you said, a driver of autoimmunity. But if you just have Espstein-Barr and a perfect, clean lifestyle with all the right nutrients, you might not develop autoimmunity. So it's not a guarantee either. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  18:55

You said a very good thing. If you have a clean diet with great nutrients, you will not have EBV because EBV is an opportunist. All you need is a drop in your nutritional status. When does it come? When you're stressed, you don't sleep, you overwork, you overgive, you overextend yourself, and you cut corners. And when you're stressed, you don't eat well. It's like a double whammy. During stress, we ooze nutrients left and right. Magnesium goes, zinc goes, and immunity goes. We are so compromised, and the virus goes, ‘Oh!' And then, with just one junk meal, you can increase your NF-kappa B by 150% for two hours. NF-kappa B is an inflammatory protein that is like a taxi for EBV; it hijacks it. It uses it to replicate. So it's like groundwork. Honor your boundaries, your soul, and who you are. Don't overwork. Don't say yes when you mean no. You need to say no. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  19:55

And I feel like the patterns in our community, at least… We have a joke: “Welcome to the overachiever, overgiver, perfectionist, anonymous international club.” We work on creating awareness of how much empathy that community has, how much more sensitive they are to other people and energies, and how much more aware they have to be of that protective bubble of their own personal energy so they're not invaded. How much more sensitive they are to Wi-Fi technology and mold exposure. That kind of is in the mind. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  20:34

For me, our community is beautiful because these are the most feeling people. These are the healers. But they get hit with this virus because it's almost like the body is hitting the wall. You're not going where you need to go. You're not listening. And the virus is an opportunist. I think I was so lucky to always do what I loved, so my immune system is strong because this is my backbone. I'm always happy. I don't have toxic relationships or toxic bosses. It's huge. And people underestimate it. 

Dr. Jill  21:13

I love that you started there because, actually, that's such a critical [piece]. I find some of the most important healing comes from those healthy boundaries—loving ourselves, giving but also protecting, and taking care of ourselves. This makes so much sense. You and I had a little discussion in an email before we did this as well, because I said one of these ingredients—we'll talk about treatments that I liked—is actually probably treating another opportunist, which is fungal or yeast infections, because that also often co-exists with someone who's in a weakened state. 

Dr. Jill  21:43

I always say, “Yeast is opportunistic.” Well, EBV is the same. Opportunistic just means taking advantage of you in a weakened state. And just like we said, everybody has these old viruses. EBV is one; it's a big one. But most of us have varicella—chickenpox. Some people have CMV. Many people have Borrelia or Lyme disease. And not everybody is ill from these things. But when that immune system bar drops all of a sudden, we don't have the resources to keep them at bay, and that's what you and I are talking about. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  18:55

Yes, exactly. And think about it; as they say: “If you break a leg, you can heal it. But when you break the spirit, that's it.” And a lot of people in our community have gone through trauma, been betrayed, or had so much stress. [Some have] lost two family members in a day. A repeated story, right? Then, on top of that, the way we build houses in this country is like a breeding ground for water damage. Full plaster. 

Dr. Jill  22:40

Well, let's talk briefly about that because we talked before about the connection. Of course, I treat a lot of people with mold. So tell us about that connection, because that's important. If someone's walking around, they may have had mono—EBV—in the past. They're doing okay. But then they get into a water-damaged building or [have] mold exposure. How might that reactivate or cause problems as well? 

Dr. Kasia Kines  23:03

We don't know, but it does. I always say that if somebody comes in and they have both—and we know they have both EBV and mold—chances are the EBV was there because of mold. The priority is mold. The priority is that. Dilution is the solution. Get out of there, or get it out. Sell. Whatever you need to do. Whatever else you do is secondary, and, EBV, good luck to you. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  23:30

When I initially have a predictable protocol, a core protocol, I immediately watch it because I know what it delivers because it's evidence-based. So if we stumble with it, we need to look at other things. Mold is the biggest one that gets in the way. Wi-Fi, too. If you have mold and Wi-Fi… Mold because mycotoxins make many more toxins that are more aggressive. We don't know if it's because they're happy or [because] they're threatened. We don't need to know. The bottom line is that mold can trigger autoimmunity and all kinds of stuff. So you can have Hashimoto's as well, which is very common and misdiagnosed because of mold. 

Dr. Jill  24:12

Yes. Again, I'm glad that we're talking about this because it's so multilayered. We know mycophenolic acid, which is a common mycotoxin produced by mold, is actually used as a drug called CellCept to suppress the immune system. We know what happens: Those exposures weaken the immune system, which we just talked about, which is the framework for this virus to pop itself up. And I agree with you that you always treat the mold first and then go to the viral level. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  24:37

Yes. You mentioned candida. If you currently have mold exposure, your candida will start colonizing. So you want to take an organic acid test, look at arabinose, and also look at oxalate levels. But then, with the oxalate level, people get confused and change their diet to low carb because they think, “I can't eat oxalates.” I said, “No, this is just mold.” It's nice; I have to go through it and approve that. “No, don't restrict food.”

Dr. Jill  25:08

Kasia, I love this. And you start out with Dr. Mullins and nutrition, so you know as well as I do… When I see those oxalates on there, and I want to actually bring this point home because we're so aligned, it's not a problem with the dietary oxalates—that adds to the load, but that's not your issue—it's production from internal sources, like fungal [spores] or metabolites in mold. And you have to take care of the root. Oxalates are really good foods. They're almonds, blueberries, and spinach. You take out those foods, and you're losing nutrients. So I love this.

Dr. Kasia Kines  25:34

Thank you. That's why I moved away from functional medicine because I really feel that it's going into a rabbit hole. And really, common sense is being lost in practitioners. You have to really look at the whole picture. 

Dr. Jill  25:55

Good for you. I couldn't agree more. So let's actually shift, then. You've got some science-based protocols that work. I'd love for you to share a little bit about how someone would go about the testing or say that they already know that they do have reactivation. What direction do you go once you find out you have reactivation as part of your clinical picture? 

Dr. Kasia Kines  26:15

First of all, the supplement protocol doesn't fix EBV. Everybody wants: “Give me some supplements, and I'll be fine.” They will create a foundation. And then you really have to revisit what you've been doing, like with your life, with your thoughts, with your water, and with your food. Because EBV is a reflection of environmental toxins as well. You have to address all that. So I'll tell you what I don't do. We had that conversation about monolaurin—lauricidin. I don't like to kill. You would have to go to Germany or Italy, have the whole blood removed, replace it, and come back home. Then you will get a blood transfusion and get infected again. We live with this virus. We cohabit. So don't think about killing it and getting rid of it. It's not going to happen. But what will happen is that it will create a lot of oxidative stress—free radical damage. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  27:22

I found in the medical literature that the best… I collected the stellar, like, multitaskers, superstars. They really are nutrient-based. It's a nutrient. It has multiple functions. So it builds you up like the brick walls of a house: Amino acids, antioxidants, vitamins, minerals, and they have specific anti-EBV activities that they perform. Studied. And then, on top of that, you have to drive them up to a dose that is therapeutic. And is high—aggressive. So I have to be very careful. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  28:07

The hardest part of writing the book for me was having a fear that people would overdo it because more is better. “She says this; I'm going to do even more.” Or [they'll] do it for five years or hurt themselves. It was really hard to write that book because I had to—I promised everyone I would do [inaudible]. So [taking into account] contraindications [and] working with the practitioners, “How high can I go?” And I don't like combination supplements. Combinations of hydrochloric acid and enzymes, combinations of antivirals, combinations… because you need to know how each one modulates you separately. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  28:53

Sometimes people have a bottleneck effect with NAC. They over-methylate. They can't. So they have to drive NAC by itself to see how far they can go or if they can sleep at night. So when we do that initial protocol, I give them like one or two months. Especially if you have a gene SNP where you don't process or metabolize supplements very fast, just [take] one at a time, increase each day, and set the foundation because that will actually help you prevent reactivations in the future. When you create the protocol that is actually working now, in the future, you will be able to turn this off within 48 hours when you have reactivation. Even more, you're going to be so educated that you will know when to expect reactivation. You will know exactly why you're starting to reactivate. You're going to know your symptoms first, like, ‘Oh!' You're going to run for that initial protocol again, and it's going to turn it off within 48 hours. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  29:57

This is how I finally figured out the logistics of how to get a person through the process so that, five years from now, they are living their lives [and] they know what to do. When shit hits the fan—pardon my language, but life happens—they immediately get on this initial hardcore, highly aggressive protocol. So the virus doesn't even reactivate. So the protocol—selenium is one of those. I go all the way up to 800. I don't recommend doing it on your own because, with anything above 800, you're going to have toxicity symptoms. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  30:39

One of our students recently wrote the names of the supplements and dosages on the caps—you know, on the tops—because they have brain fog and can't remember. But she wrote it wrong. And she tells me: “I'm on the bundle, and I am feeling crappy. I don't know; something's going on.” And something was mentioned about selenium. I said, “Wait a second. What about selenium? How much are you taking?” She was overdoing it. So she had, like, rickets symptoms. Not rickets… With selenium? Yes, that's not rickets. I was thinking about vitamin D. But anyway, you have to be careful and work with a clinician. The book has contraindications. The book [inaudible].

Dr. Jill  31:21

Just so everybody knows, if you're listening, we're going to put links to your training course and your book. So if you want to really get in, this is just a teaser, kind of the intro. You definitely have the training for those who want to dive deeper, and we'll link to that. But you said selenium. What else after selenium? 

Dr. Kasia Kines  31:37

Selenium. High NIC. High lysine. Zinc—you need zinc every day, so it needs to be with a little bit of copper. And then vitamin C with bioflavonoids, because it extends it longer. There should be vitamin D, of course, with K2. Am I missing something? There should be eight. Licorice is the only botanical. It's not a nutrient-based one, but it's worth it because it…

Dr. Jill  32:15

When I think of licorice, I think of adrenals and cortisol as a piece of the puzzle. Is that one way that you're using it to kind of support the adrenals and that? And we know, like you said, that the thyroid and adrenal glands can literally be attacked by this virus. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  32:27

Yes. So adrenal insufficiency is something in our community that is always present. I don't see normal adrenal function. Licorice is perfect because it just lifts those adrenals and gives you a little oomph. The blood pressure drops too low, and people are just… So that kind of pumps it without coughing. When stress impacts your body, it also impacts your thyroid, like you said. The thyroid is the one that decides how you secrete stomach acid. Oftentimes, your stomach acid starts dropping. So you become more sticky for infections, co-infections, overgrowth, candida, bacillus—and this and that—strep stuff, H. pylori. We have to look at the whole person. Ladies and gentlemen, it's not just a quick fix. Let's get those darn supplements, and off we go, doing the same thing we were doing. It's kind of like an ‘Aha!' place in your life. 

Dr. Jill  33:46

It is, in a way. It's like a lot of things. But I love that you're focusing on this because there are so many illnesses and so many things that are a wake-up call for us to actually start paying attention to how we're living, how we're showing up, like you said, our boundaries, and our relationships. And I love that you kind of started with that framework. This is a call for any of you suffering from this not to just grab a bunch of supplements and keep going just like you're doing. And especially, like you said, in our country, it's such a productivity-driven [culture], like: “Don't rest.” “Don't take time off.” “Don't take care of yourself.” And this is a perfect wake-up call for really taking those things seriously in your life. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  34:24

Yes, and it's difficult because Americans work more than Japanese people. It's like, ‘Oh!' I grew up in Poland. We had summers. Everything was low-key. There was no pressure. Nobody made a lot of money. We were just happier. And I've been pretty much working here nonstop. I love it, but still.

Dr. Jill  34:45

You got sucked into the culture, didn't you?

Dr. Kasia Kines  34:47

I got sucked [in], so I am slowing down right now, volunteering and doing other things, and being very selective about medical conferences. I don't want to travel or go to the conference anymore. It is hard for Americans because life here is complicated—lots of pressure, lots of complexities. Aging parents with cognitive deterioration. There are all these things. And at a certain point in your life, as a woman in particular, you have those aging parents [and] the complications. You have your long-term spouse. That may be complicated. The kids are going to college. That is complicated and expensive. It's like you don't even…

Dr. Jill  35:34

You're juggling a job, pets, or whatever else. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  35:38

You don't have your own personal dreams. You're just constantly on the go. So it's difficult. 

Dr. Jill  35:49

Yes, gosh. It's one of those things where we often think of suffering, illness, or something that stops our ability to perform and work as a real negative. But what you're doing is framing it as: What if the EBV in your life, the fatigue that you're suffering, is actually a wake-up [call] for you to change and shift and become the person who shows up as you've always wanted to show up? And I really like that framework. Illness is never fun. I've been through cancer, Crohn's disease, mold-related illness, and I've had EBV. I have it under control, but it's absolutely something I've experienced. But what's happened in each one of these things is that it shifted how I see life and how I show up. And I'm still in the process, still working at not working too hard. But it's so important to view these things as maybe an awakening versus just something that happens to us. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  36:43

Yes. And I don't know how you did it because I find that I'm not a very good patient myself. 

Dr. Jill  36:48

[laughing] I know, totally. Yes, exactly. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  36:50

I do have good news, though. And this is something: I feel like clinical nutritionists are undervalued. People don't understand what we do from our perspective. But after 20 years of looking at everything and looking at my body and how it's handled everything and how I handled it, I will repeat what I've heard for many years: Up to 80% of chronic illnesses are caused by nutritional deficiencies. And it still stands because, basically, what I'm doing with EBV is building people up nutritionally. We focus on quality foods, quality nutrients, absorption, and decreasing the toxicity level on different levels so those nutrients can be better utilized rather than doing damage control constantly. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  37:44

I want to impress it on the audience today so you don't feel really discouraged: The good news is that the body is infinitely intelligent if we can get out of the way and only provide what it needs at the right times [and in] the right combinations. Immunologists forget: Immune cells require amino acids, nutrients, and magnesium… They require nutrients, darn it. They do! You have a weak immune system? Support it. We have studied fiber. You need stool. If you have fiber, you're going to create short-chain fatty acids. They will be used by Tregs, like the Superman of immune cells. 

Dr. Jill  38:32

Yes. It calms down that autoimmune reactivity, right? 

Dr. Kasia Kines  38:35

T17—Th17. So this is what I have to teach because people have no idea they're looking for the next vaccination or the next study. There's no magic. We have it in our hands. And I have to impress on everybody: I see people recover and live their dreams every day, and it's just the most amazing feeling, and you do too. I just see it with EBV. So I have to say, it's totally possible. It's your birthright to be well. You just didn't know, so now you know. Now you can do something about it, not go into the rabbit hole of the whole medical structure that is failing us, and be your own advocate. You can get proper testing. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  39:20

By the way, there are consumer-direct labs that will do proper testing for EBV. I'm not kidding you. I have [known] people [who],  for seven years, have been trying to find a doctor who will agree to test it because they say: “No. [There's] nothing yet that can be done. I'm not going to do it. It's not going to tell you anything.” That's life spent uselessly. There are a lot of resources there. It's all doable. It's all doable. 

Dr. Jill  39:51

And now more than ever, like you said, patients have the ability to get the labs, to get the nutrients, to do some of this. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  39:56

Yes. You have more freedom than you think. Yes. Just keep going. Find doctors who will be on your team. 

Dr. Jill  40:06

Amazing. … And [find] people like you who are out there teaching. So you've got the book. I want to make sure people know about that. What's the title, and where can they find your book? 

Dr. Kasia Kines  40:14

The EBV Solution. We have a link on Amazon. But we have links to everything on our website. We created a resource website: EBVhelp, basically. EBVhelp.com

Dr. Jill  40:27

Perfect. So EBVhelp.com is your website. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  40:30

Yes. Everything is there. We have workshops. We have free workshops [and] $47 workshops. We have more spiritual workshops, food workshops, training for doctors, and training for people who are sick. The website has a lot of information about understanding your labs. All that information. There's a video there. All kinds of scenarios are there. There's a link to the book. We try to make sure that if somebody googles EBV, they don't go into a rabbit hole and really spiral. This is what it is. And by the way, we have summer and wildfires. I just want to address…

Dr. Jill  41:12

Yes, let's talk about that at the end here. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  41:15

Yes. July 4th—if you have EBV and are not well, you cannot inhale the air from fireworks. You cannot sit by a pit fire when the wood is burning and the wind blows the smoke on you. You should not be grilling while inhaling the smoke. The wildfires—you can be outside. You have to wear a mask, especially if you have EBV. And then you need a good filter in the house and definitely supplements for EBV to keep it under control. There were studies from Switzerland: Dioxins after fireworks linger for, I think, two weeks in the air. They don't just dissipate. So you're going to have exposure. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  42:00

We remind [people] every summer—we send messages—so please share, because for a lot of people, you may be doing everything right, and you're doing better, and then you tug, and you really feel derailed and demoralized. It's like: “I'm doing everything right. It's not working.” But there's always a reason. The virus is predictable. So that would be the reason. And it really helps people understand: “Okay, this is not a mystery.” 

Dr. Jill  42:25

I love that you're talking my language because, of course, wildfires—I'm in Colorado, [so they're] very, very common. Two years ago, one and a half years ago, we had massive, massive wildfires in my community. What I saw, all of a sudden, was that the labs of my patients—everybody in this community that I was testing—looked just like severe mold exposure, which is that toxic load in the air that weakens the immune system. What I realized is that the same kinds of markers, TGF-β and MMP9, were being elevated by the wildfire, the burning of all these toxins, and, like you said, the smoke of fireworks. So I love that you're talking about that. And if you're out there and feeling helpless, you can get an air filter for your house. You can do this work yourself, and then be very careful about exposure. 

Dr. Jill  43:05

Well, Dr. Kines… Kasia, it has been such a pleasure to talk to you. EBVhelp.com is where you can find more. I appreciate the work you're doing, not only for patients but even to bring awareness to practitioners. So thank you again for all the work you're doing in the world. 

Dr. Kasia Kines  43:21

It is my honor. I thank you for everything that you are doing. So yes, invite me anytime. We'll talk more. Any support you need. Let's educate people as needed. Thank you for having me!

Dr. Jill  43:31

Absolutely. Thank you so much!