In Episode #17, Dr. Jill Carnahan Interviews Jackie Wicks from Peer Trainer on how women over 40 can be in the best shape of their lives!
Dr. Jill
Dr. Jill Carnahan is Your Functional Medicine Expert® dually board certified in Family Medicine for ten years and in Integrative Holistic Medicine since 2015. She is the Medical Director of Flatiron Functional Medicine, a widely sought-after practice with a broad range of clinical services including functional medical protocols, nutritional consultations, chiropractic therapy, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, and massage therapy. As a survivor of breast cancer, Crohn’s disease, and toxic mold illness she brings a unique perspective to treating patients in the midst of complex and chronic illness. Her clinic specializes in searching for the underlying triggers that contribute to illness through cutting-edge lab testing and tailoring the intervention to specific needs.
A popular inspirational speaker and prolific writer, she shares her knowledge of hope, health, and healing live on stage and through newsletters, articles, books, and social media posts! People relate to Dr. Jill’s science-backed opinions delivered with authenticity, love and humor. She is known for inspiring her audience to thrive even in the midst of difficulties.
Featured in Shape Magazine, Parade, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, First for Women, Townsend Newsletter, and The Huffington Post as well as seen on NBC News and Health segments with Joan Lunden, Dr. Jill is a media must-have. Her YouTube channel and podcast features live interviews with the healthcare world’s most respected names.
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The Transcript
#17: Dr. Jill Interviews Jackie Wicks About Women’s Fitness Over 40
Dr. Jill 0:12
We are live! Okay. Hey everybody. Thank you so much for joining us! I've got my dear friend Jackie Wicks here. Just a little housekeeping: If you're listening on Facebook, of course, you can share. This will be recorded, so you can listen later if you like. You guys are in for such a treat. I love this woman, and I love the energy that she brings wherever she goes, [as well as] the excitement and the ideas. When I leave coffee with her, I feel totally energized. I want to go take notes about plans and things going on. I want to pull up her biography really quickly and share it with you guys.
Dr. Jill 0:54
She is a nationally recognized healthy lifestyle expert and the co-founder of Peer Trainer in 2005, with the objective of helping people put their health, fitness, and weight loss efforts into action. She's a former venture capitalist and an entrepreneur in the tech industry. We'll hear about what she's doing now too, since 1998. She began her career in strategic marketing at Faith Popcorn's BrainReserve and Peer Trainer. Now she has been featured in hundreds of media outlets, including People, the New York Times, and ABC News, and she strongly influences the industry. She's just a wealth of ideas, energy, and joy. I am so excited to have you here, Jackie. So welcome!
Jackie Wicks 1:35
Aw, thank you. I always like to see you. We were just talking about how I haven't seen you in months.
Dr. Jill 1:39
I know. It's fun just for us to catch up, right?
Jackie Wicks
Yes, exactly.
Dr. Jill 1:45
So I always like to start with [one's] story, which I'd love to hear. Peer Trainer was the first book and thing, but you had a lot of stuff happen even before then. How did you get to be where you're at and interested [in what you do]? You can start the story anywhere you like, but tell us a little about your story and how you got to where you are now as an influencer.
Jackie Wicks 2:01
That is such a good question. I met my husband in New York City in 2001, right after 9/11. That's when I was a venture capitalist. He also ran a small hedge fund and did some things. Of course, you know him. We were talking about different things that we could do, and I had a dot-com. I was super interested in human dynamics and how we could figure out a way to do accountability for change, but positive change. Because I had experience and I'm sort of obsessed with Man's Search for Meaning [by] Viktor Frankyl. I'm sort of obsessed with groups [and] what kinds of things can happen within groups. Most of the time, it's always profiled: The negativity, the wars, and the craziness that can happen in the negativity of a group. But it's really not talked about: What happens with positive peer pressure? So we were talking about different businesses that we could start. And I had gained 85 pounds in my pregnancy.
Dr. Jill 3:17
No way! Oh my gosh, I didn't know that.
Jackie Wicks 3:21
Or was it 65 [pounds]? I was maybe 122 [pounds] before my pregnancy. Okay, so [I went up to something] like 185 to 189 [pounds], and I thought all the weight would just drop off. And 20 pounds came off, and I was like: “Okay, well, what's happening? I'm breastfeeding. I don't understand! How could I still have 45 pounds to lose?” At the same time that I'm sort of obsessed with psychology and groups and why people do what they do and the internet because I have been online since 1995, my friend emails me and says: “I can't believe that I can't stay on track to lose weight. I know you're post-pregnancy. Why don't we keep each other accountable?” And I said, “Totally!” But what happened is that the second she went out on a date or had nachos, my partner was out. I was like, “We need more people in our group to do this.” And what happened was that we formed a group online.
Jackie Wicks 4:20
But there were no good communities back then. There were no structured communities. As weird as this sounds, “social networking” wasn't even in the dictionary yet. It wasn't a term. It wasn't known. So we were sending each other emails back and forth. “You better pick a salad at lunch!” “You better go running!” And then we were so excited. We were all keeping each other on track in this group. I would have 90 emails in a day, flying back and forth. People were like, “Why don't we get together and have dinner?” And it was so unstructured and disorganized. So I built a structured peer-pressure-for-positive platform so we could all easily see what each other was doing and keep each other accountable. What was interesting is that it was such a natural segue into health and fitness. I got all these questions like, “Well, who's going to go online to lose weight?” I mean, it was really back then when nobody understood that people needed something anonymous [and that] they needed support. The thesis was that everybody knows what to do, they just have a tough time following through.
Dr. Jill 5:22
Oh gosh, you totally hit on this psychology thing that's so critical, isn't it?
Jackie Wicks 5:27
Yes, exactly. And that's what I thought. So I knew the psychology part was critical, but I thought everybody kind of knew what to do. I got an email from somebody. This was the moment; this is how I ended up meeting people like you and a lot of your colleagues—”So Jackie… ” Because I'm like the girl next door, [people felt], “Hey, I can talk to you; you're not a doctor. You're just sort of curating the community, and we're all just kind of in this together.” She said, “I had 12 diet Mountain Dews and 12 cans of”—I didn't even know there was such a thing—”diet string cheese.”
Dr. Jill 6:04
Oh my. I didn't even know there was such a thing. Oh my gosh, that's crazy.
Jackie Wick 6:08
And she said, “I don't understand why I'm not losing weight.” And I got this email, and I go, “Oh my God!” This whole [idea that] “everyone knows what to do” [went] out the window. And because we had millions of people, we realized that people didn't know what to do and that we had to seriously form an incredible community of practitioners and experts in all the fields—from psychology to science to everything—that could actually lead the community. And that's what happened. If I had a problem, I would drag someone in. So my husband decides he wants to run a half marathon. He starts training—10 miles a day—and I know he is going to crash and burn and get so hurt. So I pull in Phil Maffetone. He is the Hawaii Ironman coach [and a] three-time winner. What would happen is that every time I would see a problem that I was having, I would pull in an expert. Then my community would say, “I'm having a problem. Can you find somebody?” That's really how we developed this incredible coterie, and that's kind of how I got to where I am now. It was really based on problem [and] solution, but as a collective community, how could we all help each other?
Dr. Jill 7:32
Wow. First of all, I love it because you're tapping into this untapped thing of people getting motivated by others. And I remember when Gretchen Rubin wrote the book, The Four Tendencies, and how much it resonated. I don't know if you remember that, but there's this upholder, which is the person who doesn't need an outside influence to motivate them, and they don't need it inside. They're very self-motivated. Those are a small percentage. They don't need the group, but they're the exception, not the rule. And then there are the obligers, and they have no internal motivation. They can't do it themselves. But if they are in a group, like in a group fitness class or a group online, they can do it. The questioner will not listen to outside [influences], but internally, they can kind of do their own thing. And then there's a rebel at the bottom that [whether it's] internal [or external influence], it doesn't matter [to them].
Dr. Jill 8:14
But you are speaking to that obliger group, which is at least 25% to 30% of the population. Basically, when they get group [influence], when they get that encouragement from other people, they can do anything. But by themselves, their personal motivation is kind of lacking, they have trouble, and they struggle. And you hit up this whole group that really, really, really needed a solution. It makes so much sense. Even for someone like me who actually has the external/internal motivation, the group mentality, and the encouragement is a huge, huge piece.
Jackie Wicks 8:43
You know what I love the most about what you're saying? Everybody always starts beating themselves up: “I just wish I could be like Jill.” “I just wish I could have that internal motivation.” And what you're saying is that rather than trying to change and beating yourself up into something that you're not, this is who you are. This is how you can accomplish things. Just form that process and those things around you so you can stop beating yourself up and get to where you want to go. I love that you said that.
Dr. Jill 9:15
Gosh, and I love that you're talking about being yourself because everybody's different with their fitness goals and with what their body is going to do. Not all of us are meant to do Iron Man. For some of us that would be the worst thing in the world, like myself. And, it's funny, both you and I have gone through a journey lately, in the last year or two. I'd love to tell people a little bit about that. We're both over 40; we won't reveal our true ages. Most of you know how old I am. But having said that, part of our topic is: How do you stay fit over 40? I want to share a little bit about what I learned. Jackie, I definitely would love to start with you because I feel like, as we've talked over the last year or so, there's been this real “Aha!” moment for you to realize something that you thought you would never do or be. And now it's such a part of you, and you're like, “Why in the world?” And the word that all this revolves around is “resilience.” So I want to talk about how this fits with resilience. But tell us a little bit about your journey lately with lifting and getting fitter, and how that's transformed your fitness.
Jackie Wicks 10:13
Yes, I love it. And I love that when I started on this, I could talk to you. We were sharing so much. To get, not vulnerable but a little bit personal, I kept trying things. I kept saying, “I'm not as happy as I want to be.” It's not even like, “Oh, I want to get a little better.” I was pretty frustrated. I was like, “I keep pleasing everybody,” and I always have been that person. But I started getting really burned out and going, “I can't seem to make this shift.” I understand everybody has kids, but it's not an excuse. I see so many friends who, when they have kids [and] their husbands, have a pretty interesting balance of putting themselves on the same level as their kids. I just never have. I think I overcompensate. I think everyone does.
Jackie Wicks 11:15
Not to get super personal, but my mom had this thing of “I'm first, and if I'm happy, you'll be happy.” So I was really like, “Okay, I'm kind of over here.” And there are so many things I wanted to do, [but] I would find all these excuses not to do them. I'd get in this bad circle, and I would just keep doing the same things. It was just a real rut, and [I was] really stuck. And not stuck like, “Oh my gosh, yes, this will pass in a week.” It didn't matter how many opportunities I was saying yes to [or] how many insanely great things I was doing in my life. What was so interesting about this whole thing is that, as much as I've been doing Peer Trainer this long, I was always focused on food. I was always focused on sleep. I was always focused on releasing my stress. But when it came to exercise, I was like, “You know, I'll be fine. You know, I'm figuring out how to maybe do a half-mile run.” I was always like: “I'll never be that CrossFit person. I don't want to be that CrossFit person.” I grew up thinking: Long, lean, and ballet dancer. Not that it's not still that way, but that's how I grew up with my ideal version of fitness.
Dr. Jill 12:29
Right. And would you say not lifting weights?
Jackie Wicks 12:33
Yes, and it didn't matter how many people I interviewed about weight [training]. I knew weight training and resistance training were everything. Every single person I talked to, especially after a baby, [said] “You've got to do this no matter what!” My grandmother, [who was] in her 80s, worked out at Gold's Gym. I had a role model, and I was still like: “Not for me. All these people keep saying I'm not going to get bulky, but I still think I will.” And [I'd give] every excuse in the book. I would see some of our friends, and I'd say: “Oh, yes, she might be lifting weights, but that's for her. I mean, look at her physique. She's meant to lift weights. She'll never get big.” So mentally, I was going around and around in this rut. And on Twitter, the number one thing everyone kept saying is that when nothing changes, everything you do is not working. You're almost like this dog in the corner that keeps getting shocked, and you're just done whimpering; really, you can see the visual. It was: “Just get physically fit. Figure out how to get physically fit. It will change everything.” And I kept seeing it enough, [so] I said, “This is the only thing”—weights, resistance training—”I haven't tried.”
Jackie Wicks 13:54
I had a friend who had put together this very hardcore weight training program [that was] not based on CrossFit. He knows CrossFit really well. He's a strength and conditioning coach, but it wasn't necessarily a CrossFit thing. He said, “You've used some of those moves, right?” He said: “This is a nine-week program. It's extremely intense.” We're talking deadlifts, incline bench press, and figuring out how to do pull-ups. Every single thing. I almost bragged and said: “I'm never doing that. I'm not doing that.” Eight workouts a week, so two a day of cardio and weight training—real weight training—deadlifts. I'm in the muscle part of the gym, going, “I just don't fit here,” [and] feeling so insecure and weird. “Okay, I know everybody does this, but this just does not feel right.”
Dr. Jill 14:56
It was kind of an identity crisis for you, wasn't it? Like, this wasn't me, and it doesn't resonate with me. But then you chose to do something. And I just want you guys listening to realize that maybe what it's going to take is for you to actually see things a little differently and see yourself differently [in terms] of what you're capable of. At the core—we're getting to this, and I'll let you get right back to your story—is resilience, which we'll come back to. And this kind of thing is at the core of resilience.
Jackie Wicks 15:24
I have the chills listening to you because after I told you we had gone walking… I'm going to even reveal what happened. So it's the first workout. I am so terrified. I have signed up for this. I have committed to this. This is a nine-week program. I have to take a test at the end. The test at the end is that I have to be able to do a pull-up. This is the ACFT. It's the Army Fitness Training Program. And this is what is going to become the standard for what women and men have to pass. After you do different things, you have to pull a sled. And after all these things you have to do, you have to run two miles in 20 minutes. It doesn't sound like it's fast, but after you've already done this massive weightlifting—it's all timed—you have to throw medicine balls at certain things. So I'm doing it. I hired a trainer. I gave them the program. I'm doing it.
Jackie Wicks 16:21
It's Friday, I'm terrified, [and] I'm eating nachos. I don't even eat nachos. I don't even like nachos, and I'm terrified. I go in on Monday for my first workout. I'm like: “This is the program. I'm going to do it.” I lift. I'm starting the first day. “I think I have an anxiety attack. I think I'm having a heart attack.” I call up my husband, and I go: “I think something's wrong. I think I need to go to the hospital.” It turns out that I'm in the parking lot, and we're next to a place where the ambulances rest. [inaudible] “I can't believe this is happening!” I can't breathe. I'm freaking out. I can't really talk. I called my husband to come and meet me in the parking lot. He calls over the ambulance, and they're like: “Maam, you are not having a heart attack. We are 100% sure you are not in any real danger.” So this is why I want to now come to you and tell you my mental identity, [which is] that I was not this person as manifested physically.
Dr. Jill 17:40
Yes. I remember us talking because I was like: “Wait a second. There's this old trauma pattern here.” And that's why resilience happens. If you're doing the same old thing every day and expecting a different result, it's not going to work. Again, I'll share with you shortly a little story of my own where I really transformed my body and my physical health. It was something I never thought possible. It'll blow your mind, so stay tuned. But back to you.
Jackie Wicks 18:03
Well, I want to hear your story.
Dr. Jill 18:05
This is great because your body subconsciously still has this image of who you are, who you're supposed to be, what you're supposed to do for fitness, what's feminine or ladylike, or whatever things you have. And one of the things we're telling you as a takeaway for women over 40 is that you do need to do weight training. If you're not doing it, you're not going to stay in the shape that you want to be in. It's really critical.
Jackie Wicks
And I kept hearing it from all of you all the time. I know anyone watching this right now has heard, “I have to do weight training.” “Okay, well, I'll get there.” But in their heads, I swear they're saying the same things I am: “But I'm going to get bigger.” I had one woman who, when I was telling everybody I was starting the program, was like: “Well, I can't do that because I'm already fat, so the muscles will fill in my fat.” Other people were like, “But Jackie, you're so thin and fit. Why would you do that?” Other people were like, “Oh, you're going to turn into one of those CrossFit people?” I got it all. When I tell you that me starting this program—I watched it trigger everyone! The only person it didn't trigger was my husband, who said: “Finally! After all of this! You're finally going to start a weight-training program. I couldn't be happier!” Because everyone knew, like you, that it was the most important thing. I have to tell you that weight training is now my number one… The scale on which I don't know which one is more important is the fact that I had to commit to the program.
Dr. Jill 19:45
You would have quit after that first experience, no doubt, right? After the ambulance, you would have quit.
Jackie Wicks 19:50
Yes. I had always committed to food programs, and maybe…
Dr. Jill 20:00
One-day detox or these kinds of things.
Jackie Wicks 20:04
Different things, but this one was a really big deal. Everybody thinks, “Oh, you'll only be happy at the end.” After day four, I was so impressed with myself. I was like: “Okay, I'm not weak.” “Wow, I'm pretty strong. I'm stronger than I thought.” And every time I wanted to quit, and, [by] God, were there times when I wanted to quit, I was like: “No, this is the program. I'm going. I don't care if it is 8:00 at night, and I just got off a flight.” But the most important thing that happened was that it was the only thing that had ever transformed my mind. All these people on Twitter were right. I started to feel euphoric. I know this is going to sound strange, [and] maybe some of you will understand: I didn't relate to the word ‘strong.' I didn't necessarily always want to be strong, but I wanted to feel good. And I started to feel really good about myself physically. I didn't lose a pound during the specific program. I lost massive inches. I could wear anything in my closet that I had ever had. But it was more important that I was like, “God, I feel good today!” Just like you, Jill, because I know you already do this, you motivate everyone around you.
Jackie Wicks 21:30
I had to go help my friend and her daughters in college. “God, look at you. Can we come to the gym with you?” It became inspirational to everybody just because they were watching my energy level and what I did. I did the nine weeks fully. I did the test. I failed two of the events. I actually didn't pass the 20 minutes of running; I was two minutes over. But I'm going to do it again. I decided to do the program. It's so specific and intense that I decided to do it once a year. I have my testing. I have my records. And I can't wait to see what I do next time. And I know I've been very roundabout, but when I was telling you about what I was doing here, I was like, “Yes, the ultimate physical representation of absolute fitness is a pull-up.” And you're like: “Yes. Everyone is so shocked that I can do a pull-up.” And I'm like, “Wait a minute, you can do a pull-up?” You're like, “Jackie, I can do several.”
Dr. Jill 22:30
Jackie, let's go back. This is a big deal. I remember this from like a year ago. Maybe last fall—maybe not quite a year ago. But I remember us talking at the coffee shop. I was like, “Yes, I know I could do a few.” And I told you, “I think I can do 10.” I wasn't trying to be facetious or brag or anything like that. But I was like, “I kind of think I can do 10.” But then I remember in my heart, I was like: “I just told Jackie I can do 10 pull-ups. Well, I better be sure that I can.” So I have my pull-up bar back there, and every day since then I've done 10 pull-ups. I think when I told you that I was able to do eight, so I was close. Now I can easily do 10. I can actually do 20 if I want. This is interesting because, among women our age, most of them cannot. If you're listening here, I challenge you to try to do one pull-up with good form. Hang straight; go all the way down. You can do them either [for the] biceps or the lats or like this. But it's really difficult because it involves the core. It involves body weight. It involves arm strength.
Dr. Jill 23:26
I just happen to be blessed. I have a lot of upper-body strength. I always hated that. It's funny how we have these things, right? Like, I always thought I was like a football player in grade school. I was the one with the broad shoulders. Now I'm glad because I have lots of upper-body strength. I'm someone who, if you tell me I can't do something, will prove you freaking wrong. That's my thing. So I remember us talking. It was more just like: “Oh, I said something, and I don't want to be a liar. So I better make sure.” And I just heard a motivational thing: The times when we get more motivated are when we say, “Oh my gosh, Jill, you're a liar if you don't do that.” That'll motivate someone. It won't motivate you if you're just like, “Oh, I want to make this goal.” If you call yourself a liar until you prove yourself otherwise or you say [to yourself], “You're not acting with integrity,” you're going to follow through because you don't want to be a person who is not acting with integrity. Just our conversation was a powerful motivation for me to have this pull-up bar in my house and be like, “Okay, this is really important.”
Dr. Jill 24:20
My journey was so interesting—very similar in a way—because after the divorce, my ego was kind of down. I was trying to rebuild myself [by asking], “Who am I after a 20-year marriage fails?” I remember thinking, “Okay, I'm going to get strong physically because that's something that will help me mentally.” And I didn't even know all the stuff that you're sharing. I didn't know the psychology of it. I took up kickboxing right after. It was my first thing. I didn't do great because I hurt my neck all the time, so then I took up some other things. But being strong and having strength physically really helped me emotionally and mentally get through that year. And then my whole journey has been more high-intensity [training] like running. I would get up at 5:30 and go do a two- to three-mile run and Orangetheory, which, as you know, is this high-intensity training. I love that. I felt like that was my thing. [I would feel] my adrenaline, and I really loved it. I didn't think I was overtraining, and I didn't think I was obsessive. I did love to work out because, like you said, it helped my mood. I would probably work out five or six days a week [at a] pretty high intensity for 30 to 60 minutes. Nothing excessive, at least I didn't think so.
Dr. Jill 25:27
But here's what happened, Jackie. This will blow your mind. And I want you guys to listen closely because nothing in medicine ever taught me this. This is crazy. I'm telling you. This is going to blow your mind. So literally, up until [I was] 42 years old, I was like that. I did high-intensity [training]. I did running. I did aerobics. I did all kinds of stuff [with] pretty high intensity, and I loved it. Then I started working with a functional movement trainer, who was all about just movement. For my first training, I had to crawl across the floor because I was just getting the motion of my balance and my spine in order. For the second training, I had to balance on a balance beam. Like, really stupid, simple things. And I was thinking during the training session: “Oh my gosh, let's get going. Let's do something. Let's get the adrenaline pumping.” It was so boring, but I stuck with her. And I stuck with her. And as she trained me, my whole physiology changed. At the same time, I was doing therapy and I was doing work because part of this drive to go, to be fast, to be high energy, and to be high intensity was the fact that I couldn't sit still for very long because if I sat still, my emotions would come up. So I ran, and I did, and I was busy, busy, busy, busy. I actually had to work with my mind, my spirit, and my emotions to be able to sit still with myself and be comfortable before I could change my exercise routine. And as that coincided with this trainer, I gave myself a three-month period where all I did was [based on] that trainer, which was two days a week. [It was] very low intensity, no running, no high intensity. And all of a sudden, Jackie, I started to lose body fat percentage. Basically, I joke that I got in the best shape of my life and lost 8% of my body fat when I stopped working out. Now, is that freaking crazy?
Jackie Wicks 27:07
I remember! I remember us hiking, and you were like, “Look at me.” There was no fat—I mean, nothing.
Dr. Jill 27:15
I've never been this percent body fat, and I'm not even trying. I've eaten the same thing. We know that food is really important. I have a really clean diet. So that's been the foundation. And let me tell you why, if you're listening, this is a big deal. Cortisol will sabotage whatever you're doing, [especially] if you're someone who's already driven [and has] high cortisol [levels] like I did. Everything in my life has been: Drive! Go! Do it faster and quicker! Don't rest, or you're lazy. Be strong! That's been my mentality. But guess what? That'll drive your cortisol [up]. Your cortisol will drive central fat [storage]. It'll drive layers of fat around your muscle. I was driving my cortisol levels up by going out and doing Orangetheory and running. Those are two things that are going to drive up your cortisol. What my body needed was a slow walk with the puppies—two miles for an hour. And a hike with a friend, where I'm talking like you and I would do maybe 45 minutes.
Dr. Jill 28:05
Still to this day, I'll hike and I'll walk. I walk every day. I'll hike once or twice a week, and I do weights. But I'm telling you, one day I'll do 20 push-ups. I do my pull-ups. One day, I'll do some sit-ups. I don't even do the same thing every day. I definitely don't do sets. I'm talking simple, five-minute or fewer types of workouts, maybe three days a week. I barely work out, and I'm in better shape at 44 years old than I've ever been in my life. So to me, that blew everything on its head because I thought I was doing all the right stuff with the running and the high intensity. I probably burned way more calories. But guess what? I made my cortisol jump up, and it sabotaged my weight. It's funny because I wasn't even trying to lose weight. And like you said, all of a sudden, my clothes fit better. I have a tracking device that checks the percent body fat by segment. So I do that every month or two. I was shocked to see that over this time frame—it was about six months—[it resulted in] eight percent body fat. That's crazy!
Jackie Wicks 29:04
I mean, eight percent! The other thing that was so funny is that—because I've known you for a long time, visually, the way that you saw yourself versus what you actually looked like after you stopped the Orangetheory and all those things—you didn't even recognize it. I would say, “Of course, you look great in that.” And you were like, “No, it's a little… ” I said, “What are you… ?” I said, “Oh, you still see yourself when your cortisol was up.” By the way, you've always been beautiful. You know, we all have body things, right?
Dr. Jill 29:50
Yes.
Jackie Wicks 29:51
And we all don't see ourselves clearly, and to watch how it manifests itself, you're just sort of surprised: “Wait! She does not see herself. She doesn't really know.” And it was wild to put up a mirror to you and say, “Hello!” It was really interesting. I think the thing that I'm most impressed with is your openness to consistently try new things and [the fact that] you're not wedded to, “Okay, well, this is what the science said, so I need to keep doing that.” You've been so open, and you share it all. Of course, when we're sitting, I'm like, “Oh, I need a link to that.” “I need a link to this.” And I think what happens is that you're able to synthesize the information and then make it where “Maybe I can try that” versus being so intimidated.
Jackie Wicks 30:46
And I think that's why I was okay after talking to you and calling an ambulance over. You had explained a little bit, like: “No. You know what? This is a psychological thing manifesting itself.” It helped me push through, but it also helped me transform in [such] a way that when we were talking, I don't remember the way I used to think. I would never think doing deadlifts would make me look like a CrossFit person. I'm no longer intimidated by those areas in the gym. I look so comfortable in those areas of the gym. People think I'm a trainer, and they come up to me. I go: “What? Why are you asking me?”
Dr. Jill 31:29
Jackie, I just want to point that out in case people missed it because we actually got on just a few minutes before we went live. I remember you saying, “Well, I can't quite remember how I felt,” because you were telling me a year ago how you felt, and it was such a transformation. And you're now in this new mindset that it's hard to even remember [how it was before]. I feel the same. Like, 10 pull-ups—that's just normal. That's my every day [experience] when I walk through that doorway. Now, I want to tell you something else. This is going to be a game-changer if you're listening. Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg—he's a great guy, a Harvard Professor—it's a great book. There are so many great habit books out there. I really like his. This is the thing: You might hear 10 pull-ups [and think]: “Oh my gosh, I'm never going to do one. How in the world?” And [you can] be intimidated. Guess what? Tiny habits are where it's at.
Dr. Jill 32:10
So what he teaches, and what I do now, is I don't ever work out. When I walk through that door, I do a few pull-ups. When I brush my teeth, I do calf raises. After I walk through the living room, I might do two push-ups. But what he does is link tiny little increments. So two push-ups—anyone can do two push-ups, right? Calf raises—three calf raises. Anyone can do calf raises. What you can do is link them to things that you already do. Like, do you brush your teeth every day? Well, probably the answer is yes. So when you brush your teeth, if you link a new habit, like, “I'm going to get down and do two push-ups” or [even] one push-up, number one, it's easy. No one's going to say I can't do two push-ups or one push-up. But the thing is, when you tag it to something you're already doing, it's a really easy way to integrate a habit. Like, I walk through that door, and I have to do a few pull-ups. And it makes it so fun and easy. It's just like my little thing, and the same way the calf raises with the teeth brushing. And you can do this with anything. So what I end up doing is having my day-to-day routine. I'm just doing my day-to-day, my interview, and then doing paperwork. My exercises actually just integrate into my day, and I never work out. It's so cool. Like, I never have a workout.
Jackie Wicks 33:21
I love what you said. So I work with an incredible guy, Stuart Watson. Just the other day, he goes: “I warm up my coffee probably five or six times a day. It takes about 30 seconds. During those 30 seconds, I do something. So what could you do for 30 seconds, Jackie?” I go, “Oh, I love doing planks before meetings.” He goes, “Okay, every time you're waiting for your coffee to warm up, go do 30 seconds of planks.” And it's exactly what you said, and I never understood how powerful it was until what you were just suggesting.
Dr. Jill 33:55
Yes, because it's linked. Same thing. I'm making my coffee in the morning, and I go do it. I have a few more to put into place. And you can just do one thing for a week or two, and then all of a sudden, it's just natural. It's fun. It's almost funny: I love this because he hated flossing his teeth. His teeth were tight, and the floss was hard to get in there. It was like this pain that he knew he should do. Every time he would do it, he felt guilty, and he just didn't do it. So he said: “BJ, once you brush your teeth,” which he did every day, “I'm going to floss one tooth.” Ridiculous, right? Like, how stupid? But guess what? That's easy. He's like, “Okay, how can I say no to one tooth?” But then, while you're doing it, you're like: “Well, this is stupid. I might as well do all of them.” So he tricked himself into flossing all his teeth. And the same thing with [something] like one push-up. I mean, really, while you're down there, why don't you at least do two?
Jackie Wicks 34:45
It's so true. I think so many of us have just been so trained that weight training is for someone else; it's for an athlete, for somebody who's not intimidating, for those people I see on TV. It's not that we don't all know that we don't need to do it—these habits, all these things. It's that, for some reason, we think that's not us. And I think the most important thing is to say, “How many people do I know who have said, ‘Oh, that's not me,' just like me?” It didn't matter who told me or how much I knew was true; all my friends [would be like], “Oh, that's not me.” And then they would try for a few minutes, or they would hire a trainer. The best thing I ever did was hire a trainer because I was so intimidated.
Jackie Wicks 35:36
When I wanted to learn tennis, I go: “Well, I don't want to mess up my elbow. I want to know the right way to swing.” I hired somebody. He taught me the lessons. I had to swing down, and then I was able to go. I felt the same way about a trainer. It doesn't have to be a permanent thing. In fact, it's better if it's not. It's better if it's not about the motivation. It's better if it's about showing you proper form. It was one of the best things I did for a specific amount of time. I was like: “For nine weeks, I have a trainer once a week. I have no idea what I'll do.” But I had invested that nine weeks. It was the best thing I did.
Dr. Jill 36:14
I totally agree. I always saw that with my clinic. I used to be covered by insurance years and years ago for family medicine, and then I went to a cash practice. I remember at the very beginning, I was like, “Oh, I hate that I have to charge people for my time.” It was a really hard idea to get used to. But what happened is that it wasn't just about me and the services I provided. When patients put in a little bit of themselves with a fee, all of a sudden they came and were like: “Dr. Jill, I'm here, and I want to get better. And I'll do whatever you say to help me get better. What would you like me to do?” And I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, I can help you.” The other model of insurance is like: “Well, my insurance won't cover vitamin D, so what do you want me to do? Do you want me to pay cash? Five dollars for that vitamin D. Are you kidding me?” The mentality is totally different when you invest. I do agree.
Dr. Jill 36:58
If you're listening out there trying to get fit or trying to get into a new habit, hire someone. Hire a trainer. Hire someone to motivate you. This is worth every penny. And it can be short-term if your funds are limited or whatever. You can do it. Or you could even do a trade. Sometimes there's a skill that you have as an accountant or a massage therapist, so you can trade services. You can give them the gift of what you can provide, and then, in exchange, you can have their services. And that's a way, if you can't afford it, to really make this happen because that motivation is then built in. I've had trainers off and on throughout my life, and they've always been helpful. I don't always keep them—again, there's a period of time—but it's super helpful. And learning new things that I would never do, [such as going to] parts of the gym—like you said—that I would never go into, is what they would do.
Jackie Wicks 37:42
Yes. There are productive people in every industry. There are people who are good. There are people who are maybe not so good. And I don't mean not good. Everybody has a different approach. And here's the thing—the advice that I got was: “If that person's not good, don't just give up on that altogether. Be like, ‘Okay, that wasn't a fit. No problem. Let me find somebody else.'” And when you limit it like that, you don't feel so bad. When you're like, “Okay, I just want to try two sessions and see,” then you're like, “Oh, it's really not for me.” Then you don't feel bad. But I will tell you that the trainer had my program. I know for a fact that if I weren't on a real program, I wouldn't have transformed as a person. Program versus weight training—they're both so important. I don't know which one I would rank higher.
Dr. Jill 38:50
I totally agree with you. And I think that having a goal [is important]. Part of the habit-forming process comes with a reward. That's why there are a lot of things that are bad habits. Like maybe we smoke a cigarette and get a nicotine hit. That's an immediate reward for someone who feels that hit, so they continue smoking. When you exercise, you don't see the next day that you've lost five pounds. Unless something really weird happens, that usually doesn't happen. So it's a short-term [expenditure] of energy for a long-term goal. So one way that you can actually help your mind get into the program is to give yourself a reward. Now, don't go out and have an ice cream sundae, because then you're totally going to sabotage it. But the reward can literally be [something simple].
Dr. Jill 39:34
BJ Fogg would be like, “Yes!” Just saying that to yourself [or] “I did it!” Or, by setting yourself a goal and then accomplishing it or giving yourself a gold star—I mean, these silly little things—our mind takes them in as a reward. So if you can incorporate some type of reward for when you do meet what you've set yourself up to do, I would highly encourage that. And like we talked about, for me, the reward is just feeling strong. So I was the opposite of you in my family because [being] strong was a really important value. So I always felt like: “Gosh, I can't be weak. I have to be strong.” So contrary to a lot of women, from [a] young [age] on, I was always like: “Oh, I have to be strong. I have to be strong.” So I wasn't afraid of muscle. But that value was there. What it's done mentally is to know that when I'm physically strong, if for some reason some emotional catastrophe comes or something happens in my office, I know, “Okay, I can handle that,” because I believe that I'm strong. Even if it's just physical strength, it translates to emotional and mental strength. And it translates to that word we talked about, resilience. Resilience is the strength to overcome adversity. We all—now, before, or in the future—have had adversity or it's coming. And this physical strength we're talking about actually builds your resilience to handle adversity. Wouldn't you say that's true?
Jackie Wicks 40:48
One hundred percent. I didn't know this, but I know that this is a common thing for everybody: I had a real fear of my emotions. I would do whatever it took. I didn't necessarily [inaudible]. I would do complete distraction [inaudible], ruminating on whatever it was, and getting strong the way that you're saying gave me the confidence to deal with emotions. As weird as it sounds to deal with, “Oh, I'm scared.” Okay. It's okay to be scared. It also helped me stay through the tsunami of: “Oh, my God, this emotion is going to take over me. I better go get one of my distractions. I better go have a glass of wine”—or who knows what it is. And when I suddenly got strong enough, like you're saying, it was no longer a tsunami. I was like: “Okay, this is a wave. I know how to swim. I'm Okay. Yes, it's hard to swim. Yes, it's very hard to swim in the wave. Yes, I'm going to get wet [and] the whole thing, but I'm going to be okay.” [I was able to do that] in a way that I didn't have before.
Dr. Jill 42:03
Gosh, I love that. And I love that anyone who's listening will understand this. We all have medicators. I love the term “medicators” because when I talk about addiction, some people are like I used to be; they're like: “I don't have addictions. That's not my issue.” Well, the truth is, we're all medicators, and those are things that we do to suppress or not feel painful emotions. I tend to work. I tend to move, be busy, or go running—that was my old pattern. Or I tend to call someone up. There are healthy medicators too. There are things we can do, like call a friend or whatever. But we all have those medicators. And what the physical activity, the fitness, the weight training, and the program you mentioned can do is give you one more tool to have more resilience and to deal with those emotions and things. It's kind of an outlet, in a way, to get that out.
Jackie Wicks 42:52
People like you who are resilient help people like me who maybe don't have a framework or a map for that. And that really is one of your core values. You're always talking about your core values. I mean, four pillars, and that's one of your table legs. Your table is very sturdy with the faith, joy, and resilience, and I think it's love, but I'm not—
Dr. Jill 43:15
You're right on! Amazing! That's exactly it.
Jackie Wicks 43:17
I got it! I got all four. That's a very strong table. And that resilience part of it, and me watching that, is like, “Okay, this is something.” You hear about resilience in everything because we all get knocked. I used to spend a lot of my time going: “Well, why am I getting knocked? I had the best of intentions. How come they did that? How has this happened? I worked so hard.” It's the ‘should,' right? Stop ‘shoulding' on yourself. “Why is this happening?” versus understanding that the word ‘resilience' is where it is. It doesn't matter how hard you work. It doesn't matter what your intent was. It doesn't matter what you put out there. You cannot control what's coming back. And I think resilience is the only thing that can help you let go of trying to control the situation. “I'm so mad, but I did everything right.”
Jackie Wicks 44:12
One of the most popular lines in my community since we launched in 2005 has always been: “I do everything right. Why can't I lose weight? Why can't I get fit?” It's being mad versus the resilience of, “Okay, well, I'm not doing everything right.” That's why I like your table. I call it your table. You have a very sturdy table of values. And that has always inspired somebody like me to say, “Okay, yes… ” When you remember that and when you get knocked, it really is “get knocked seven times and get up eight.” You have to learn that in life, or you'll always be frustrated.
Dr. Jill 44:59
Yes, I just had this vision. It's kind of a funny one. You know how when those used car lots have a big sale, and they'll buy that thing that has hot air going in, like a red tube with arms, and it's like this thing in the car lot? The red thing, you know what I mean? Those blow-up things. I just had a picture of that big red blow-up air thing that's like this funny-looking animal. It's just blowing in the wind. It's like this, right? And I had that image as you were talking about resilience because we're just like: “Ugh! I hate when this happens,” and then we tense up. It's the same as a car accident, which is why an alcoholic in a car accident doesn't usually get hurt because he's [inaudible].
Jackie Wicks 45:35
Exactly. I can't believe you said this. I asked my son to coach [me]. He's a varsity tennis player. I asked him to coach me in tennis the other day, and he goes: “You're trying too hard. You're trying too hard. You're too tense.” He goes, “We all look at these tennis players on TV, and we think they're using all their might and strength.” He said, “They're not using it; they're so loose.” Then, do you know what he has me do? You have to do this because it's wild. He has me take a tennis racket. I have to hold it like this. I'm only allowed to hold it with three fingers. I'm not allowed to use these fingers to hold a tennis racket. He's like, “Okay, forehand.” I'm like, “What?” I'm so loose. I have no strength because I have three fingers. It was the best shot, and then I did it again. And he goes, “See, this is loose.” Loose. It's just like that visual of that balloon you just mentioned. He's like, “This is all my coach cares about me doing.” And he's like, “Relax through the swing.” I went back, and I go, “Relax through the swing.” I go: “This is life advice. Relax through the swing. We're all trying too hard.”
Dr. Jill 46:42
It totally is! Well, look at me. For 42 years, I got up at 5:30, and I pushed. And I didn't even know I was pushing. I thought I was enjoying myself. I thought I was doing the right thing. I never complained about getting up early. I liked it, but I was pushing forcefully against what my body needed. My body needed gentleness, softness, rest, walks with the puppies, and a hike with a friend. And then a little bit of pull-ups, but that's all. It's amazing to me: How in the world did I not love myself enough to listen? I want to talk a little bit about where you're headed, Jackie, but one note to end on with this is that you all know yourself, but you have these patterns that you're stuck in. I encourage you to really listen to your body. Listen to what it needs. That may sound really esoteric, but your body knows.
Dr. Jill 47:37
My body knew it needed a slower pace. And as soon as I gave it that, it was like: “Oh, thank you! How many years were we going to go on like that? Let's let go of all of this flab and this cortisol.” I'm like: “What in the world? This is great!” But I didn't understand that. So listen to your body. Be gentle with yourself. Be compassionate. Listen to what it needs. So Jackie, before we end, you've got a lot going on now. What's on your horizon? How can people get a hold of you? Share a little bit about what you're doing now.
Jackie Wicks 48:10
Oh, absolutely. I'm helping bring the Power Plate. And I think people know what the Power Plate is. It's whole vibration training. It goes with the natural reflexes of your body, but it engages all of your muscles. It's a technology that's literally been around since the late 1800s. Russia used it for its astronauts. They could keep their astronauts in space for 300 hours, versus ours, [who] could only be [there for] 100 hours. So it just kept developing. It was really harsh on the body, but it worked. Now it's the kind of thing where it's whole vibration training, and it's good for you. There are 200 clinical studies that prove whole-body vibration training. But I love it. I have one. I can't show it to you. I wish I could because it's the move. I have to tell you, it's the best health and fitness tool I've ever had—especially because I've been at home and the gyms haven't been open. It's the kind of thing where if you lift weights on it, it's the wildest thing, it almost halves your workout. So for somebody like me… I love it.
Jackie Wicks 49:22
But I'll always have the Peer Trainer community. Somebody emailed me the other day who's been with me for 15 years. Jackie@peertrainer.com always, because I want to have the Peer Trainer community forever. It's really a community of amazing people that still do the groups, even if it's not the most incredible, updated thing. It's a community where it's anonymous. You don't have to worry that people will judge you or what they're thinking. You're not always using it as a test. When people were like, “Oh, you're going to become one of those CrossFit people?” that didn't feel so good. Sometimes it's good to be in a community where everyone goes: “Eh, you want to do that? Try it. See what you think.”
Dr. Jill 50:06
Yes. Awesome. Well, as always, it is so fun. I can't believe how quickly our time goes.
Jackie Wicks 50:13
I know!
Dr. Jill 50:13
I hope if you're listening, you found this somewhat helpful and encouraging. I'll leave you guys with [this]: You're all resilient. So find that place where you feel most resilient and the things that encourage that in your life, because we all get knocked down by things. And if you aren't in the midst of a trial right now, you either just got through one or it's coming. That's just how life is. So it's much better than to fight like with the tennis racket—and the whole blowy balloon thing—to let your body be in it.
Jackie Wicks 50:39
Yes! That was the best visual. The next time I'm trying too hard, I'm going to be like… [arms wiggling]. [laughing]
Dr. Jill 50:46
[inaudible] blowing in the wind. Awesome. Thank you, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll talk to you soon. Bye-bye.
Jackie Wicks 50:52
Bye.
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