In Episode #85, Dr. Jill Interviews Dr. Christine Schaffner on enhancing detox through the lymph system. Learn about the best ways to enhance lymphatic drainage and overall health and detoxification.

Key Points:

• What is bioenergetic medicine? How do we assess the bioenergetic field for optimal health?
• Why does dental health matter? Could this be the missing link to your autoimmunity and health issues?
• What does the lymphatic system do? What are the best ways to enhance lymphatic drainage and overall health and detoxification?

Our Guest – Dr. Christine Schaffner

Dr. Christine Schaffner https://www.drchristineschaffner.com

The Podcast

The Video

The Transcript

#85: Dr. Jill Interviews Dr. Christine Schaffner on Enhancing Detox

Dr. Jill  00:13
Good evening, everybody! I'm so excited to be here with my friend, Dr. Schaffner. I have such great respect for all the work she's doing. If you've followed her or seen any of the things she's doing, she's been prolific lately too with podcasting and sharing the world of lymph. Today, that's going to be our topic. I'm super excited to have her. I think we did some other interview for a program she did and it resonated with what she's doing. I think we have the same kind of purpose in the world: To help people with healing and continue to bring the information out.

Dr. Jill  00:43

Just a little housekeeping: You can find all my blogs, resources, and anything you need, and sign up for the newsletter at JillCarnahan.com. Any products we have at Dr. JillHealth.com. You can find this recording wherever you listen to your podcasts, on iTunes or Stitcher, and also on my YouTube channel, where we now have over 80 interviews. All the videos are there and you can watch them if you just search ‘Jill Carnahan' on YouTube. Be sure to subscribe there so you don't miss any episodes.

Dr. Jill  01:12

Today, I want to introduce Dr. Christine Schaffner. She's a board-certified naturopath who has helped thousands of people recover from chronic and complex illness. I think that's one of the things I realized when we first talked: A lot of us in this field deal with these most complex chronic patients—I love it and I know she does as well—but it tends to be the ones who have tried other things and been in other places and have not always had the best luck, especially with our conventional system. It serves its purpose, but when it comes to complex chronic mold, Lyme, and some of these things, I don't think it does us a great service many times. So I'm super excited to pick her brain on lymph drainage and some of the remedies and things that we can do around that. 

Dr. Jill  01:49

She's done online summits. She has The Spectrum of Health Podcast. If you haven't caught that, please be sure and tune in on her podcast as well. And I think we're going to do a recording so that I'll be on your podcast in a few months as well, which is exciting. She goes beyond biological medicine, pulling from all systems of medicine and healing modalities, helping patients reclaim their wellness and reveal their brightest light. I love that because it's really about that. She's got a lot of credentials. I won't belabor the point, but you can find her at DrChristineSchaffner.com. You can find her bio; you can find her resources. But welcome, Christine. I'm so glad to have you here today!

Dr. Christine Schaffner  02:27
Thank you so much for the warm welcome. I have a lot of gratitude and admiration for your work, and I'm so excited that we get to do this interview today! 

Dr. Jill  02:35
Me too. I love to start with [one's] story. I would love to hear just a little bit about: How did you get into medicine and naturopathic medicine? How did you get your start? What's your story behind it? 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  02:47
I grew up in Virginia. I was raised in a family of medicine. My dad's an oncologist and a hematologist and my mother has a nursing background. She went through the education route, so she did a lot of teaching and she was a director at a hospital. I was exposed to the world of medicine and I always loved science and biology. I was really good at it, and I could memorize everything. I just had that affinity. Especially in my high school years, when we used to go to bookstores, I'd go to the Barnes & Noble's spiritual-wellness type section. 

Can you hear me, Jill? Right now, there's like this leaf blower out there, so I'm just making sure that it's not recorded too much. But can you hear me okay?

Dr. Jill  03:35
I can hear you okay. Yes, there's a little sound in the background but [inaudible].

Dr. Christine Schaffner  03:37

I know. It's like four o'clock here, but someone is leaf-blowing.

Dr. Jill  03:42

Yes, no worries.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  03:44

This is live, right? This is in real time. 

Dr. Jill  03:45

Exactly.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  03:47

Anyway, I had this curiosity for what we call the mind-body-spirit. That led me to an exploration and to meet different people. I found out about naturopathic medicine through a family friend. When I found out about it, it really clicked. It felt like, “This is the medicine I've been searching for.” 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  04:06

I had to go through a little bit of my own process and journey. I graduated from the University of Virginia in about 2003 and I went right out to Bastyr. I was 22 years old. I thought I knew things about health. It was a complete culture shock and there was so much new information. I did something very unlike myself; I decided I would take a year off because my East Coast ego was still like: “Should I be a medical doctor? Should I be a naturopath?” I couldn't quite settle in. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  04:36

It was really interesting during that time that I took off. I spent time in Colorado and I lived in Aspen for a little bit. It was almost like foreshadowing. I was in my 20s and working like four jobs to be able to live there. I connected with the Aspen Center for Integral Health at the time. They bring in all these wonderful people and that community is like very [inaudible]. I learned about mercury in the mouth, colon cleansing, raw food at the time, detox, and different integrative strategies. It was all this foreshadowing. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  05:15

I found my way, going from naturopathic school, taking a little break, coming full circle, and coming back in 2007 to Bastyr. It was timing for me. Everything clicked and I felt very passionate that I wanted to find a path to help the true cause of why people are sick. And when I was at Bastyr, one of the first weeks we had this brown bag lunch and Dr. Louisa Williams was there and she had just come out with her book Radical Medicine. I was like, “Whatever she's teaching, I want to learn. And that's what I want my practice to be in.”  Her book was before Kindles. It was big, and I would just cart it around. It's really the textbook of how I practice. She talks about biological medicine, interference fields, and all these things. That sparked me on my journey. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  06:11

Out of school, I got a great opportunity. I learned a lot about complex chronic illness, as I'm sure you're very well in touch with. Our patients teach us every day. I think this is a really important time to bring this medicine to the forefront so people don't have to suffer so much and people don't have to spend decades trying to figure out what's wrong, going to dozens of doctors, and spending tens of thousands of dollars. I really admire your passion as well [focusing on]: How do we get this information out to more people so they understand that it's not a random event that's happening in their body—there are many reasons why we end up with imbalances—and make that more of a mainstream conversation? 

Dr. Jill  06:53

I love that. And I love hearing people's stories. There's this soul-healer piece, right? And clearly, you had a family history. I had no medicine in my family at all. I come from farmers and nurses—my mother was a nurse—with no medical doctors at all. But now I look back, and I'm like, “I was a healer intuitively.” And the same with you. And what's neat is that we've come to this path. 

Dr. Jill  07:16

My training is very different—conventional medicine—which is a great foundation for trauma or heart attack. But then it fails us a lot in almost every other area. And like I said, I have such respect for my naturopathic physician friends because you guys teach me so much about lymph, about bowels, and about colonics. And we'll talk about all that today. And obviously, we measure EKGs with energetics, so we know this is real; it's science-based. But there are a lot of energetic fields that affect our health too so I'd love to talk a little bit about that. 

Dr. Jill  07:47

First of all, what kind of patients do you mostly see? I'm sure the complex chronic [patients]. But give us a little framework. And then let's go into how you would address that. And of course, we're going to get to the lymph system.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  07:57
My average patient has seen a dozen doctors, tried a lot of things, and has these multi-systemic illnesses. They are unfortunately plagued with a list of symptoms: Insomnia, anxiety, depression, brain fog, chronic sinus issues, a lot of digestive issues, and a lot of circulatory issues, like cold hands and feet or stagnation in that area. It's this feeling of being unwell. And I know that you have your health journey and I'm so in awe of where you are today with that journey. But you and I live life like a dream. I do things that I love every day. And the thing that breaks my heart about a lot of my patients is that they're amazing souls but their bodies are so sick that they can't do much other than survive each day. So that is what keeps me going is holding them in the space of our medicine and having that vision for them to not only recover but also to live a purposeful, meaningful life that I think we are all on the planet to do. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  09:12

It's very rewarding to treat people and get their suffering alleviated. But I think we need to think about the more people who go through this journey and this understanding of how we're wired to heal and how we're so connected to the natural rhythms, nature, and the planet. That has such a ripple effect. Those are the people I see. And they're not one label, one pill and they're better. That's not what we do.

Dr. Jill  09:43
I love that. And two things that you mentioned, I think, are so key: Number one, it's not just healing, which we can do, but it's getting them to thrive and find their purpose and meaning. I know I've been doing functional medicine for about 20 years, but in the last maybe 5 years I've done my own personal healing in trauma work, somatic work, and some of that. And that's been even more profound than any supplement, diet, or any of those functional basics that we do, or even lymph drainage. 

Dr. Jill  10:10

There's this awakening, as we could call it. And that's another way to say what you just have been saying: How do we allow that patient not only to get well but to awaken to their real purpose and calling in life? And that's where it gets so exciting, right? And honestly, I feel like exponential healing happens when patients start to realize: Why am I here? What is my purpose? What's my joy in life? How do I serve in what I've been called to do? So I love that you mentioned that, because that's the next level of healing. And sometimes doctors just stop at, “Okay, the physical healing is done,” and then that's it. So I love that. 

What do you start with? Do you start with the detox? Do you start with drainage? Give us a little map of how you might start with a complex, chronic patient.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  10:54
It's a great question. I think my answer always evolves. Just as I know you are well aware, we treat everyone who comes into the office individually. But we have a map and a thought process, and it depends on where people are at. But I look at it from a couple of different ways. We do all the lab work and all the functional medicine work. Then I do a lot of bio-energetic assessment, which allows me to connect with their physical body and their energetic body to really see where to prioritize. I find that with a lot of patients, depending on where they are, we look at and identify what we call interference fields. That's a term in bioregulatory medicine. And we look at—they've seen all these doctors, they're really smart people, and they tried a lot of things—why aren't they recovering? Why aren't things clicking? 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  11:40

A layer that is often overlooked and underaddressed is this idea of interference fields. Interference fields can be scars. Scars can affect lymphatic drainage. They can affect the fascia. They can hold emotional trauma. They can affect the nervous system in the energetic body. And believe it or not, scars can impact our ability to heal. They can be an island of turbulence in the body. So we look at scars. We look at what we call foci, which are these hidden infections in the body—a reservoir of infections that are silent. Often, they're not the typical hot, red-swollen infections. They're the silent, in the background, brewing reservoir of pathogens that are holding the patients back. That can be in the mouth, so we address a lot of dental issues. I don't know about you but I see in a lot of my patients what we call a tonsil interference field. The tonsils often become chronically inflamed and infected. And they are such a big part of the lymphatic system and our immune system, so that can be a big part—

Dr. Jill  12:45
There's a pocket of pus sometimes.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  12:47

Totally, I know. You look in there and you're sometimes like, “Oh wow!” That can be a focal infection. The sinuses can be a focal infection too. These are areas of infection that the body cannot clear. They tend to be a home base for different opportunistic pathogens that can enter the rest of the body through the lymphatic system, the circulatory system, and the nervous system. That's a big place where I start: Have interference fields been addressed? 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  13:23

Then we, of course, look at: Are they in a toxic home? We don't necessarily start there unless it's a very unique situation. I start opening up and understanding: Is there a significant trauma history from childhood? Even with the trauma of being sick, we think about all these past experiences but being sick sucks. And it's really traumatic, especially if you've been—

Dr. Jill  13:47

Illness can be one of the biggest [traumas]. And I love that you're saying that. In my history, trauma was for the people who had been horrifically abused. We grew up in a very stoic German family. It was like, “Don't talk about that.” Now I realize we all have trauma. We can have wonderful childhoods but we still have trauma around growing up and being kids. And parents, no one's perfect, and no child is perfect. So I love opening this up because if we open it up and make it less stigmatized, we can deal with it. And we all have little bits of that that affect our health.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  14:18
Yes, absolutely. I think the more that we learn about trauma through our mentors, who are pioneers in studying how it affects us, it's just as much as how mycotoxins, Borrelia, and Bartonella affect us. Trauma really is a toxicant. It has an effect on our physiology. Not to go down that rabbit hole, but I'm happy to. Trauma affects all these parts of us. It can affect us epigenetically. I believe that a lot of these memories, which are often not conscious anymore, can be stored in our fascia and connective tissue. That's why somatic therapies can be very helpful. That's why neural therapy can be very helpful. The mind can be somewhere but as the book [mentions], “the body keeps the score.” That's a big one. I think that's a really big piece of the puzzle. As you said in your own process, and I see that in patients, supplements are important. And all of it's important. But the real work, I believe, is that work. 

Dr. Jill  15:31
I couldn't agree more. I think I'm really opening people up to that piece. To me, it was exponential healing in that realm versus all the other stuff I'd done previously my whole life. I want to hear how you assess bioenergetic fields. But I just want to mention a personal story—we talked about these hidden things—because for me it was profound. I remember when I talked to an acupuncturist and realized the meridians of the two teeth I had root canals in were related to the pancreas, the breasts, and the colon. I looked at my history: I had breast cancer at 25, I had Crohn's at 26 and I had pancreatic insufficiency maybe five years ago. My whole health history was in these root canals as far as meridians. 

Dr. Jill  16:10

When I realized that about five years ago, I thought, “Oh my goodness, I need to have them pulled.” While I do believe those affect most people, not everybody. If you have a strong, robust immune system, it may be a minor issue. Unfortunately, I  don't, so it was. And I just wanted to say that because I had psoriasis prior to pulling these two. Within seven days of getting the last tooth out, my psoriasis went away, never to come back. That for me was a big aha, like, “Oh my goodness, they were affecting me.” 

Dr. Jill  16:35

The other part of the story is that I had two cavitations in my wisdom teeth. I just got these done last year. And I had always struggled, especially around mold, with cystic acne. My skin was always manifesting—the liver. Let's talk about that too, because I want to know from your perspective about the liver, detox, and skin. But I could never hide my skin and I looked horrendous at times with the mold and the acne. As soon as I got those cavitations done, I don't know if I've had one breakout since. I have the most clear skin I've had my whole life. And I realized that those dental things were massively affecting my system.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  17:07
Yes. Thank you for sharing that. Commonly, I see that in my patients too. These infections, the toxicants, and the oral microbiome have so much to do with our physical health. So if anyone is listening out there and they feel stuck, look in your mouth.

Dr. Jill  17:22
Exactly, I was like: “What else? Have we thought about this?”

Dr. Christine Schaffner  17:26
Yes,  I know. That's what Louisa said at the brown bag lunch. She was like, “What is the first thing you do with a patient?” and we were all like, “Clean up their diet” or whatever. And she was like, “Look in their mouth.” I feel really fortunate to have that imprinted. I had my own dental journey as well. I fell on my face when I was in second grade and broke my two front teeth. They were capped. Then, in college, I realized that there was a little abscess and they were root canalled. I had some thyroid stuff. I had some pituitary, hormonal axis, kidney stuff. I had this awareness that “if I don't get this taken care of, it could lead to other problems down the road.” So I'm just hoping the word gets out more about this.

Dr. Jill  18:13

I love that. So bioenergetically, how do you assess someone? Do you have bioimpedance? What kind of technology? Or in what ways do you assess?—because I'm so fascinated by that.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  18:23
Me too. I feel like a student but I have learned so much. And we get feedback from our patients. That's why we do this—because it works. I use a couple of different tools. I use Autonomic Response Testing. That's something I've been using for 11 years. I also use a tool in the office called the AO Scan. I've only honestly been using that for about two years but I feel that it is clinically relevant. I've been exposed to a lot of Russian bio-resonance technology in the past and so when a friend brought this to me, I was like, “Okay, I'll just look and be curious. Let's just see.” And you have that fun. I had all my patients scanned in the beginning just to see: “What is the pattern there?” 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  19:07

It was really wild. I saw a lot of significant markers that were imbalanced from the AO Scan that I could see in the lab work too. They correlated, so I learned to trust that tool. I have all my patients scanned, which is really nice because you can do that remotely. In the realm of telemedicine, it's just a Russian bio-resonance technology. It sends resonant frequencies to the body and then the body says what's in balance and what's out of balance. Then they give healing resonant frequencies and then it says what's been balanced and what's out of balance. Then you see what the key issues are. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  19:44

It also has this really cool thing, Jill; it has a program called INNER-Voice where you talk into the machine. Essentially, it's this program—it's an algorithm that finds high and low tones in your vocal cord from your sound. They match that with different subconscious themes and patterns that people tend to have when those vocal tones are out of balance. Then it gives you music to essentially balance and create more healing where those deficits are. It's wild. I know that sounds [inaudible].

Dr. Jill  20:19
As you can tell, my mouth is agape. Christine, about five years ago, right after my divorce—I call it the awakening—I had to deal with my own stuff and really went deep. I worked with a neurolinguistic programming coach. One of the things she did was treat me somatically. I saw changes in my voice. I have recordings of my facial expression and voice. Even now, if I look at old recordings or if anybody who's a voice expert looks at them, I am dramatically different in tone and musicality. I'm still changing, but I realized then, “Oh my gosh, these trauma patterns affect our voice.” So what you're saying makes perfect sense to me. And I have a much better speaking voice. I'm like, “This is crazy that NLP could change my voice.” But if you look at my old stuff, you can see it's very different.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  21:04
Yes, I know. I love that. And our voices are sending out this beautiful sound and frequency of our inner essence so of course it's going to change. I love that. So I use AO Scan. It really goes down even deeper. I really feel that's the future, Jill. The future is if we can have more of this in conjunction with all that we do… The thing that I love about the AO Scan is that people can have it at home too.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  21:35

When you're dealing with a chronic illness, it's the confusion and uncertainty of the day in and day out of what to do and “Why am I reacting to this?” That takes some of the mystery out of it. I've had a handful of patients who've started to use it at home and I'm really, really excited. They have a little thing that you can put supplements in and then you can scan [for] what supplements you need. So I'm in this passion and curiosity phase.

Dr. Jill  21:59
I'm loving this! And I don't do protocols either; I do it individually. But even [with the] individual [approach], I'll be like: “I think this should work, this should work, and this should work.” But there are a million variables with their genetics, their environment, and their energetics. And things that should work don't always work. I don't have the ability energetically to tune in like that machine or maybe to say for you, “What does your body want?” So I love this system and what you're describing. And I'm sure the autonomic training is part of it too—before.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  22:30
Yes. My process is like [this]: People do lab work; we'll do specialty lab work, and we'll scan them. If they're in the office, I have a Bio-Well camera as well. Dr. Beverly Rubin introduced me to that. It's a bio-field camera. It's a gas discharge visualization camera. It uses curling photography and this technology to map the biofield and see where there are imbalances and the field of energy that we emit. It can look at patterns not only physically but also emotionally. We have all those tools.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  23:03

Also, I kind of consider it a bio-energetic tool, even though it's more in the realm of biological medicine, but I have regulation thermography as well. It looks at the autonomic nervous system. I don't always do all of those with everybody. We have all of that access. And then I take all that information in and, of course, the clinical history. Then I do Autonomic Response Testing. That's a way for me to hone in with that individual and find out where the priorities are and what the plan is. With ART and either applied kinesiology or some type of biofeedback exam, you can perceive stress and if they have an imbalance but it's only as good as the information we have too. We have to be the computer to digest it. All of that information helps me to try to hone in because there are like 30 things to treat the bile ducts. Like, “Let's see which one is going to be [inaudible].”

Dr. Jill  24:02
Exactly. I love that because it's a really personalized approach. What about… I don't think it'll be a hard question for you at all. I 100% understand what you're saying. I believe in it. I think it's the future. I am all in and I love that you're doing this. In my practice, I don't have as much access to those tools, so I love it. But what I've run into even in my realm of understanding this and trying to explain it to people are the skeptics—the engineers and the scientists. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm an engineer by trade.

Dr. Jill  24:31

How would you explain it to a person who's like, “This doesn't make sense”? And I'm the biggest believer that you're going to hear, so I'm all in. But I'm sure you've come across patients who are like: “What is this? How does it work?” We know it works. How would you describe the energetic fields in layman's terms? And how can you test the autonomic response stuff? What would you say to a skeptic? I know that I've had patients that are like that and I want to know how to explain it better.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  24:58
Totally. And there's the short version and the long version. I think maybe just to bring it out for a minute. I hear you. And even as I shared, I was open to energy medicine and all this. Then you delve into the practice and do this and you're like: “Does this work? Does that work?”—because you have that healthy skepticism. And you get that reinforcement of seeing the results time in and time out. I think we have a lot of understanding and ideas about why and how it works. But I think we have to always be open to, like, we probably know this much, and there's only going to be more and more information to understand why and how this is working as we learn more about the body. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  25:37

I looked into a few things. I always love to use the term biofield, Jill, when we're talking about this because you can search it in PubMed. It's a documented phenomenon and it combines all of this. We know, as you mentioned, that we have the EKG and EEG and all these fields. And the heart has the strongest electromagnetic field in the body, so it's generating this measurable field. And the biofield is essentially this toroidal-shaped electromagnetic field. Also, they say it's the subtle energies too. I think those are the biophotons. That is the light body. I think that it's the summation of this electromagnetic energy—the electrical fields, the magnetic fields, and that information—and the biophoton field. We know that all of our cells emit light, and we can receive light. That is also very well documented. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  26:33

The fun part too, Jill, not to skip ahead, is that we also emit and respond to sound. There's a term called biophonons, and people are studying the music that cells make. Healthy cells make beautiful music, like a really resonant kind of beautiful music. And cells that are dying or cancer cells make this screeching music. There's a researcher at UCLA who found this out. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  26:58

Why I share that is that there's all of this bio-physical nature to our structure. We know we have this biochemistry. And then we have these fields of information surrounding us. I think there's almost like this tipping point too, that people can hold this information a little bit more because our cell phones work and our Wi-Fi. So it's not a far stretch. How do you think your cell phone or your Wi-Fi work? It's [through] fields of information. So I try to set that out. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  27:31

Also, not to get too out there, what helps me to understand this is that we have this biofield of all the things I shared and then there's this whole idea of what we call the electric universe. The electric universe is a different viewpoint of the universe. Space is an empty vacuum, but there's this fourth state of matter called plasma and then there's this ether. This kind of describes how you and I are connected, even though we're far away. This information travels through this unified field or whatever we want to call it—the unified field or the quantum field. But what I want to say is that we're sitting in the sea of energy information. And we're highly interconnected. It's a spiritual message and it's a physics message too, that we are all interconnected. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  28:22

When I work with a patient, there are a lot of things happening. We can perceive a change in muscle strength based on a physical substance coming into the field of the patient that creates a stress response in the body that can tighten up, create muscle contractions, or affect the fascia. That's a lot of the premise of these forms of testing. But there are all these other interactions that I am curious to always explore. I test them when I use a surrogate arm. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  28:55

When we think about it, we have three people, we have three biofields, we have that connection to the unified field and there's this openness of information that we're connected with. Not only am I reading changes in muscle strength and this pattern that is tested and reproducible but we're also opening ourselves up to this other way of informing us what the patient needs. And like you, I'm sure when you're typing, you're like: “Okay, the patient needs this and this.” Then you get out of your brain and you go over there. And then my assistant or my resident will be thinking the same thought at the same time. And you're just like, “Where's that coming from?”

Dr. Jill  29:42
I love that you're saying you're saying that. I've done this for a long time, and I'm very analytical and left-brain dominant by nature. And it's not male or female, but I think we can also think about it as masculine (we're driven [and have] analytical energies) versus feminine (creative, muse-like, and those kinds of things). It sounds like, from your story, you've been very in touch with both. 

Dr. Jill  30:04

For me, I was very, very driven and analytical. I had to actually shift. But what happened was [that I've had] the most profound insights, understanding, and, basically, miracles, as I've embraced that. I still use the analytical [method]. I love that. But that's like an old analog computer compared to the supercomputer of the intuitive [side]. And I always back it up with science, so it's beautiful, just like you [do]. But what intuition brings me as far as information for the patient's well-being or what they might need—I don't even know where it comes from most of the time. I'm like, “Thank you!” [looking upward]

Dr. Christine Schaffner  30:36
Yes. You're talking and this whole other thing comes out of your [inaudible]. “Okay, great!”

Dr. Jill  30:42
Exactly, and I now trust it. And again, I use science. There are all kinds of checks that are still analytical, but what I find in that field of subconscious and intuition—and again, if we call it feminine masculine energies, that's just one way to think about it—is that it's so powerful. It's so powerful. And things that I could never come up with in my analytical brain—the insights and the healings and things—happen there. And I'm always like, “Wow, how lucky am I to get to be part of this?” It's not about me; it's just letting myself be a conduit to that wisdom from the Divine. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  31:19
Yes, absolutely. I'm so aligned with what you're saying. As we sit with our patients who have been struggling for so long, we talk about these complex chronic illnesses and how it takes time to heal, which is true; it's just what it is. But why I am also really passionate about bringing more and more of this work into my clinic and my realm is that I want patients to get better way quicker, way faster, and way easier. And I've seen it. It's not my everyday experience, but I see a lot of it and more of it. And I want to invite more of this conversation and more of this awareness within the clinical setting so that we can be open to—not to sound ‘whatever'—more of the miracles, more spontaneous healing, and what I know that we're capable of.

Dr. Jill  32:15
Exactly. And I love what you're saying, too. It resonates so deeply and I'm sure [it does] for those of you listening. Back in the day, when I was super analytical, I felt like you had to struggle, you had to push, you had to strive, and you had to beat yourself up. It was this old mentality of the force and the struggle that it took to achieve something, to heal, or all those things. When you go into this other quantum realm or this more creative or intuitive energy—for me, it's a very spiritual practice—it happens with such ease. It's almost like: “Really? It's that easy?” And it's just amazing to me; if we could tap into that space and teach our patients to do the same, it's so much easier.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  32:55
Totally. We all have our stuff that we have to go through to get here. And even if you're like, “I'm not sure,” there's no harm in just exploring. Try life with this awareness. Just try it on and see what happens. I feel it will evolve as I evolve and as my [inaudible].

Dr. Jill  33:21
Yes. It's really [about] trust and surrender. You're right. When we have to hold all the control, all the struggle, all that comes from feeling like we have to force [things] or we're way in the future or way in the past. But if we're present at this moment, you and I, and then we're trusting that whatever we need is going to happen at the right time, it's so easy. And it really does happen—the things we need and the resources we need. If we trust in our ability to know that we can figure it out when things come our way, it's so much easier.

Dr. Jill  33:50

Let's shift to lymphatics in our last bit. First of all, I love this conversation. I love, love, love it. And I'm getting some comments reeling in. As you guys are commenting, lots of people are loving it too. This is great. Let's talk about lymph, though. First of all, give us just a real quick two-minute crash course in the lymphatic system and why it's important. And then we'll talk about strategies to address it.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  34:14
The lymphatic system is another passion of mine. And again, my patients teach me every day the importance of this. Many patients who walk into our offices have congested lymphatics. That's a really big part of recovering somebody with any chronic illness. The lymphatic system is this body-wide network. It's a network of what we call lymphatic capillaries. We have lymphatic vessels. We have nodes. We have organs. The lymphatic system is highly interconnected to our circulatory system. We have our heart that pumps blood through our arteries. The blood flows into the arteries and into our tissue spaces in what we call capillaries. That's where the microcirculation is happening. If you all have heard, “My microcirculation is not working,” it's in the capillary system. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  35:05

What happens in that capillary system is that oxygen-rich blood, basically part of the fluid in that space, is leaving the capillaries and bringing nutrition and all this good stuff to the tissues. Some of it returns and goes through the venules to the veins and back to the heart. But a lot of that fluid stays. A lot of that fluid stays in that tissue and it starts to bathe what we call the extracellular matrix and bring oxygen and nutrition in. It also helps to shuttle waste out of that system. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  35:39

Then, in the extracellular matrix, are these lymphatic capillaries that start to drain out fluids. That interstitial fluid becomes lymph. That lymph carries its way back through vessels, encountering nodes, and making its way back to the thoracic duct in the lymphatic duct. Going back to that extracellular matrix, that is where all the action is, I believe, in our patients' stories. There are the cells, the cell membranes encapsulating the cells, all of these structural proteins like collagen and elastin, and the fibroblasts. Mast cells are hanging out there. Lyme and Borrelia love to hang out there and eat and degrade collagen. Viruses hang out in there. Heavy metals that we get exposed to because of their charge lock onto the proteoglycans. Mycotoxins can hang out there, as can viruses and parasites. This space is not draining regularly. It can be highly congested and full of contaminants. That can affect cellular communication and the ability of the cells to get the trash out.

Dr. Christine Schaffner  37:01

Why we do our lymphatic therapies is really on the microscopic level—to drain that space and keep that space moving so that we can have wonderful cell communication and keep those pathogens and toxins out of there. And that's also where trauma hangs out. There's the structured water around the collagen. This wonderful biophysicist, whose name is Mae Wan-Ho—she has passed away—studied structured water around the collagen and the acupuncture meridian system. When we do neural therapy, craniosacral or somatic work, that's why you have a memory or something when you're working on that tissue. It's all in there. That's a really important space to keep moving and keep draining and it's a big part of where we work. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  37:51

Dr. Rob Cass, who is the creator of Physica, and he has a great book, says—it always sticks in my brain—by draining the lymphatics, essentially we have the opportunity to change the [inaudible] the cell and our epigenetic expression. So, by doing these therapies, we have a profound effect on our health.

Dr. Jill  38:12
Yes. Oh gosh, I love that. And I love that you gave us an outline. I see so many patients, specifically, like you said, with Lyme and mold—which you see a lot of them—who have congestive lymphatics. Clearly, everybody could use lymphatic work. But what would be the signs and symptoms of congested lymphatics? How would you know from a clinical perspective?

Dr. Christine Schaffner  38:34
Nothing is 100% but it's pretty much 95% for a lot of our patients. But there are a lot of symptoms, from headaches to migraines to nasal congestion, allergies, a lot of gut dysbiosis, bloating, pain, edema, cellulite, and acne. And there are key areas in the body too that are lymphatic. A lot of cervical lymph nodes can especially get congested in our patients. Underneath the clavicle, on the left side, there's the thoracic duct and then the right lymphatic duct. These areas can get tender. Women, breast health is lymphatic health. If you have fibroadenomas, fibrocystic breasts, or even cancer, there can be lymphatic congestion in the armpits or the axilla. That can be a huge area. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  39:18

[It's recommended for] any pelvic issue or any reproductive issue—ovarian cysts, fibroids and probably even endometriosis, or prostate health. A lot of lymphatic congestion can happen in the pelvic floor. Gut dysbiosis can lead to lymphatic congestion. For a lot of our patients, especially with Bartonella and other infections, their lower extremities can be full of symptoms, from neuropathy to poor blood flow to edema to being very cold. With a lot of these underlying causes, the outcome is lymphatic congestion.

Dr. Jill  39:59
It makes so much sense. And I love that you mention Bartonella. There are many causes but in my clinical experience, I'll say that the most difficult lymphatic cases are usually related to Bartonella, so they're linked together. Tell us, what would you do to treat lymphatics? I want to hear about your products too for sure. But is there anything people can do at home? Tell us about lymphatic drainage stuff that we can do. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  40:27

There's so much you can do. Awareness is the first step. If you're struggling with a chronic illness, that whole idea about scars that I talked about—scars can create blockages in the lymphatic system. You can see somebody for neurotherapy or you can do different topicals, which I can talk about, or even photobiomodulation to help ease some of that stagnation in the scars. Scars are really important for people who are struggling with chronic illnesses. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  40:53

Also, especially the tonsils, make sure that lymphatic tissue is being treated. I use a lot of different topical sprays. I love Beekeeper's Propolis. I like MegaCidin and different gargles with ozonated water. Those are those hidden areas that could keep your lymphatic system congested if you're not addressing scars and tonsils, in my opinion. Also the sinuses. Again, if you have any dental infections, that's going to be a chronic assault on the lymphatics. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  41:23

There's a lot you can do. Some movement is really important. Even if you're really sick and you can't walk miles, just get up and move. Move your body. My good friend Gina Bria has also talked about how not only are we moving the lymph but also the fascia, which is the connective tissue—what we call the Seran wrap around muscles. It's way more than that; it's actually this fiber optic communication system in the body that delivers exclusions on water in our tissues. Basically, you're moving water and hydrating yourself by moving. That's really important for lymphatics and movement. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  41:58

There are different ways to do self-lymphatic drainage massages. You can use your hands. The lymphatic system is all interconnected so if there's a block in one area, it's going to affect distant areas. You want to think about these key points, especially the thoracic duct and the right lymphatic duct, opening those areas up. There are some lymph nodes along the neck that a lot of our patients are congested with. Opening this up and then draining. Also, the breasts—use it along the breasts or the armpits. There are a lot of tools. I love the facial gua shas. I think those are really fun to use at home. Dry skin brushing can be great. You always want to go in the direction of your heart and then open up upstream before going downstream. So if you want to drain this arm, you want to open up here [points to the sternum], then here [points to the bicep], and then go here [starts at the wrist and moves along the forearm toward the bicep] so that the lymph has somewhere to go. Those are some home tools. There are also the vibration plates. There are the rebounders. There are little vibration things. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  43:03

There are lots of topical solutions. I've created two products that I really enjoy. They work well. One is from a product line called Lumvi: Lympha-Gem. It's an oil infusion and it has some of my favorite herbs plus essential oils, like red root, cleavers, nettles, and red clover. And it has helichrysum, geranium, and frankincense. I have people put that on their bodies at night, especially because our lymph is draining a lot at night. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  43:32

I have another product that I collaborated on with Dr. Ruggiero called Lymphflo. It's stronger. It's really good for those congested areas and it helps a lot of our patients who have brain fog and all sorts of things going on in the brain. We want the lymphatic system in the brain to drain really well, so we open this up at night. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  43:53

BioPure has a detox deodorant so you can also use it at night around the axilla and the lymph nodes in the groin area, in the pelvic floor, or in the bikini area. Also, it can be very helpful for the bottoms of the feet. BioPure also has Fem-Tox for people who have a lot of breast congestion or are recovering from explant surgery. That can be very helpful. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  44:24

Castor oil packs can be very helpful. There are so many tools. We use internal herbs as well. There are a lot of drainage remedies and different herbal combinations that we use. So there are a lot of things to do. Also, patients who are chronically ill often have their lymph systems congested for a while. If you're in an area and you can connect with a clinic, getting a wonderfully skilled practitioner who does lymphatic drainage massage can help get things going. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  44:54

My good friend Kelly Kennedy introduced me to equipment called the Flowpresso. It's this compression suit with compression, infrared, and nanovibrational [inaudible]. It's so relaxing. You go into the portal when you go in it. It's really nice. That's a really wonderful piece of equipment to use as well. There are so many things to do, Jill. 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  45:21

One thing too, I guess, to note for our patients: Some people, when their lymphatic system is really congested and we get it moving, can feel flu-like for a little bit at the beginning. That's not a sign that it's bad for you. It's actually a sign you really need it. What I do is often treat people with binders before and after lymphatic therapies. [I] also [recommend] immune support. So whatever you're taking, just take more of it, like your antiviral or Lyme support. And then you can navigate that. Ozone can be really nice before and after as well. If it's moving too much, don't be afraid of it or be deterred from it. Just go back more gently with more support. And that does get easier; it doesn't happen for long.

Dr. Jill  46:06
That was a wealth of knowledge.! There are so many things people are asking for now. If you're listening wherever you're listening, we're going to include links to Dr. Christine's products and anything else that she mentioned. We'll make sure to get from you everything that you mentioned so that we can share that with everybody who's listening. I see some hearts going up. People are glad to hear that! Someone's like: “Wow, that's awesome!” Truly, that was a great, great overview. And there are so many things. Like you said, there are so many things you can start with at home and then some of these other remedies. And, like you said, all that junk gets stuck in the tissues and this is part of the healing. It is so fun to talk to you, Dr. Christine. And time goes by so fast. DrChristineSchaffner.com is your website? 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  46:56

Yes, it is. 

Dr. Jill  46:57

Are your products actually on the website? 

Dr. Christine Schaffner  46:59

Yes. That website will direct you to every product I have. My clinic is called Immanence. Our store is called Ipothecary. We have a lot of things there as well.

Dr. Jill  47:13
Awesome! I'll make sure people have the links. Thank you so much for sharing your heart, soul, and spirit, and all the wonderful things you do. It is a treat to talk to you!

Dr. Christine Schaffner  47:22
Thank you so much for having me on your podcast! It's always lovely to connect. 

Dr. Jill  47:25

It is!