Interview with Dr. Kavita Desai on Prevention of Neurological Disease in Menopausal Women
Dr. Kavita Desai is a highly respected expert in her field, specializing in the unique healthcare needs of menopausal women. In this interview, she shares her invaluable expertise on how to prevent and manage neurological diseases that often affect women during this stage of life.
Key Points
- Why women are at greater risk of heart disease, alzheimer’s disease and autoimmune disease after menopause
- Key takeaways from early onset dementia and why you should intervene as soon as you have cognitive symptome
- Solutions for busy women to keep their health optimal after menopause
The Guest – Dr. Kavita Desai
https://www.revivele.com/
https://www.instagram.com/revivele.inc/
https://www.facebook.com/revivele.inc
Dr. Kavita Desai received her Doctorate of Pharmacy from Ohio Northern University, and has had a multifaceted career spanning several areas of expertise. She has headed a large teaching hospital pharmacy department as clinical coordinator, started her own cardiovascular risk factor prevention clinic, and ultimately owned a multidisciplinary medical clinic with a pharmacy specializing in pain care, including fibromyalgia.
Dr. Desai’s experience in healthcare has underscored the importance of disease prevention, and the ongoing struggles women face in accessing adequate care. Despite these challenges, Dr. Desai remained committed to her work until a personal event changed her outlook.
After her mother was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer’s in 2013, Dr. Desai moved away from her clinical practice and now focuses on brain health, primary prevention of disease, and how neurological diseases and so many other inflammatory conditions affect women.
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Hormone Essentials Plus: https://www.drjillhealth.com/hep120
Brain Mag: https://www.drjillhealth.com/brainmp
Dr. Jill
Dr. Jill Carnahan is Your Functional Medicine Expert® dually board certified in Family Medicine for ten years and in Integrative Holistic Medicine since 2015. She is the Medical Director of Flatiron Functional Medicine, a widely sought-after practice with a broad range of clinical services including functional medical protocols, nutritional consultations, chiropractic therapy, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, and massage therapy.
As a survivor of breast cancer, Crohn’s disease, and toxic mold illness she brings a unique perspective to treating patients in the midst of complex and chronic illness. Her clinic specializes in searching for the underlying triggers that contribute to illness through cutting-edge lab testing and tailoring the intervention to specific needs.
A popular inspirational speaker and prolific writer, she shares her knowledge of hope, health, and healing live on stage and through newsletters, articles, books, and social media posts! People relate to Dr. Jill’s science-backed opinions delivered with authenticity, love and humor. She is known for inspiring her audience to thrive even in the midst of difficulties.
Featured in Shape Magazine, Parade, Forbes, MindBodyGreen, First for Women, Townsend Newsletter, and The Huffington Post as well as seen on NBC News and Health segments with Joan Lunden, Dr. Jill is a media must-have. Her YouTube channel and podcast features live interviews with the healthcare world’s most respected names.
The Podcast
The Video
The Transcript
172: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill and Dr. Kavita Desai on Prevention of Neurological Disease
Dr. Jill 00:12
Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill! As you know, you can find all our previous episodes on YouTube, iTunes, or anywhere you listen to podcasts. If you like this episode or some of the previous ones, please be sure to stop by and leave us a review. That helps us reach more people.
Dr. Jill 00:29
Today, I have a new friend here. I'm super excited to introduce her. And we'll go diving into our topic today, “Prevention of Neurological Disease and Chronic Illness”. We're going to hear the story behind Kavita Desai's interest in this topic. I can't wait to dive in, but let me first introduce you.
Dr. Jill 00:48
Dr. Kavita Desai received her doctorate of pharmacy from Ohio Northern University and has had a multifaceted career spanning several areas of expertise. She has headed a large teaching hospital pharmacy department as clinical coordinator, started her own cardiovascular risk factor prevention clinic, and ultimately owned a multidisciplinary medical clinic with a pharmacy specializing in pain care, including fibromyalgia. Her experience in healthcare has underscored the importance of disease prevention and the ongoing struggle women in particular face in accessing healthcare.
Dr. Jill 01:21
Despite these challenges, Dr. Desai remained committed to her work until a personal event changed her outlook. After her mother was diagnosed with early Alzheimer's in 2013, she moved away from her clinical practice and now focuses on brain health, the primary prevention of disease, and how neurological disease and many other inflammatory infections and conditions affect women. So welcome, welcome to the show!
Dr. Kavita Desai 01:44
Thank you so much for having me!
Dr. Jill 01:45
You're welcome, Kavita. So, like I said, I would love to start with your backstory. Obviously, your mother's health was affected. I want to hear all about that. But let's go back to pharmacy school and your interest in this field. How did that happen? Where did you grow up? How did you get on that trajectory?
Dr. Kavita Desai 02:01
Yes, so I actually grew up in Brantford, Ontario, Canada, which is the home of Wayne Gretzky. That was our claim to fame. [I was] always a medicine keener. I always wanted to go into healthcare. A lot of family members are in medicine. So for me, the first step was pharmacy school. I went to Ohio and loved it so much. The pharmD program at that time, which is what I ended up doing rather than going to medical school, was very immersed. I was very privileged to have amazing preceptors and phenomenal rotations that focused a lot on prevention and really immersed the pharmacists in a healthcare team. I just loved that—the whole genre. So that's how I ended up in my career. And then, I think it was just that I got very fortunate in getting the right positions early on in my career.
Dr. Kavita Desai 02:53
My first hospital-based job was on the cardiology team and oncology team, which was a great experience that led to actually becoming the clinical coordinator of a teaching hospital department. Then I think I liked it, but the lifestyle was difficult. It meant a lot of weekends, a lot of being on call, and just long hours. I really wanted to go more on the preventative side. So I ended up starting my own healthy heart clinic, which was addressing risk factors for cardiovascular disease, looking at a younger population, and trying to prevent disease rather than band-aid treatment after the fact. We were diagnosing diabetes in people who didn't even realize they had blood sugar issues, giving them lifestyle management tips, looking at blood work, and all of that. It made such an impact and that was a great stepping stone, I think, into running my own clinic, which is what we ended up doing.
Dr. Kavita Desai 03:56
We started an integrative medical center where we were actually addressing a lot of pain and addiction patients, trying to reduce the narcotic load. So we were trying to reduce opioid use by doing things like lidocaine infusions and trigger point injections and trying to get people to start using more lifestyle therapies as opposed to medication for their pain. In that population, we were starting to get referred hundreds of patients with fibromyalgia because nobody knew what to do with it. It's a diagnosis that's difficult to diagnose. So we became a champion for patients with fibromyalgia, of which I would say 90% to 95% of those patients were women and they happened to be in their perimenopausal years. So I noted that at that point in my career.
Dr. Kavita Desai 04:44
That was around the same time that my mom was diagnosed with early-onset Alzheimer's. So now I'm dealing with chronic pain patients who happen to be perimenopausal women. My mom was in her 50s. Well, she was diagnosed at 60, which is still considered early onset, but [she was] symptomatic in her early 50s for sure. I started to notice it wasn't memory loss; it was personality changes that we noticed first, and no family history. She otherwise ate well—a non-smoker, mostly a non-drinker. We didn't have the classic lifestyle habits that we might correlate with such a terrible disease state. So that's when I think the whole pivot happened for me.
Dr. Kavita Desai 05:32
It all just came full circle in terms of how important prevention is because we don't have cures for some of these diseases. Women are at higher risk for so many very detrimental chronic illnesses, and we don't always know why and we're certainly not addressing it. I think my mom was a good example of that. So that's how I ended up on this path. I think it was meant to be; maybe she led me there, I believe. She has passed away since. But I think I've ended up where I belong because I truly believe in this. I think women are an underservice population in medicine. And I'm just trying to highlight those things and prompt women to prioritize their own health earlier.
Dr. Jill 06:13
I love that. And I love that you're driven by this true experience with your mother. That had to be shocking in the beginning. And of course, you had to learn to deal with that and everything. Then your observation—so often that curiosity is what drives us, like the curiosity of “What's the deal with fibromyalgia?” Then seeing that, “Oh, it's all these menopausal women!” I've just done work on nitric oxide and the decreasing [levels] and how the women with menopause outsurpass the men with cardiovascular disease all of a sudden at menopause. And then the brain health. So there are so many areas. Do you want to do a fly-by overview? Autoimmunity is more prevalent in women. Cardiovascular disease after menopause is more prevalent in women. And then [with] dementia, I don't know what the rates are for men and women, but obviously, this is a big deal in our menopausal group. Do you want to just do an overview of some of the things you've observed and seen for women who are menopausal with these chronic, complex diseases?
Dr. Kavita Desai 07:04
Yes. So for Alzheimer's, it's about a 60% chance in women versus men, which is frightening. And we don't know why. But they're all inflammatory diseases of some sort, whether we talk about autoimmune diseases, cardiovascular [diseases], or even osteoporosis. They all stem from some sort of inflammation in the body. And dementia for sure. We know that the brain becomes quite damaged in this process. We don't know for sure; I think there's a strong correlation to hormonal changes. We're far more biologically complex. We know that as we enter perimenopause and our estrogen and progesterone start to go down, we become quite inflamed. Not to mention all the other disruptions in the body, which I think are a cascade effect in terms of increasing our risk of long-term disease. So I think it's multifaceted in how we have to look at it. There is no magic bullet to fixing the problem, except for addressing all of those risk factors.
Dr. Jill 08:04
Well, that makes sense. And in just one thing in particular, we know that with autoimmunity, testosterone decreases inflammation, which is one of the reasons I think it's four times or more common in women. And, of course, women have a lot less testosterone than men. What are your thoughts on hormone replacement? In my experience, especially for perimenopausal and menopausal women in that early decade, it's absolutely critical for brain and bone health and so many things. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.
Dr. Kavita Desai 08:32
I 100% agree. It's very sad the number of women that contact me and message me, saying that they're reaching out to their primary care practitioner and getting the old rhetoric that it causes cancer. “It's dangerous.” “We shouldn't be using it.” Or, “This is normal, what you're going through.” And although, yes, biologically, this is a normal process—we cannot stop menopause—we can certainly treat it the way we would for any other disease state or any other chronic condition where we're losing hormones. And then our body is therefore impacted by that. I'm a huge advocate for hormone replacement. If it's not contraindicated for you, I think it's a discussion that all women should be having with their practitioners and at least being offered it. And then it's a personal choice, right? But there's certainly growing evidence about how protective it is for the brain, body, and mental health even as we age.
Dr. Jill 09:34
Yes. So I don't know if you know my history, but [at] 25 years old, [I was] diagnosed with aggressive breast cancer. So I'm [inaudible] years out and I'm menopausal now. But it's interesting because even for someone like me who has a history of breast cancer, not just a risk, I have no problem doing bioidentical hormones. The evidence is so clear, especially this far out. Now, there are a few cases where you're really close to the cancer, so you need to talk to your doctor if you're listening to this. This is not a blanket [inaudible]. But I could not agree more, even for those of us who are survivors of breast cancer.
Dr. Jill 10:05
And then you have someone like your mother who got early-onset dementia. One of the very first things I do is the Dale Bredesen Protocol. I have worked with him for years. One of the very first things we do, even if the patient is on the elderly side with dementia, is think about hormones because estrogen and the brain are so connected. Do you want to talk as a pharmacist just a little bit about estrogen and the brain and why it's so critical or just the importance of that?
Dr. Kavita Desai 10:27
Yes. We have receptors in the brain for estrogen. They link to so many things, whether it's inflammation or glucose control in the brain. Even in terms of mood, without estrogen, we don't have the same neurotransmitters functioning. It impacts. It's a cascade effect without estrogen, not only on our body but also on our brain. So I think the importance of it is not being adamantly told to women the way it should be.
Dr. Jill 10:57
And like you said earlier, I think the critical thing is that women are living in fear. Even with my history, I always think if I had to choose—I don't feel like I do, but if I had to choose—between the risks of breast and brain, I'm going to choose my brain.
Dr. Kavita Desai 11:12
And I think that's the thing. Unless you've been impacted in your family or close circles with someone who has had dementia or Alzheimer's, I think maybe the fear factor is not there. But it's a terrible disease. I can speak from personal experience that with my mom, it was heartbreaking to watch someone so intelligent and so lively and lovely turn into somebody I didn't even recognize. This is going to sound terrible, but I would have wished any other disease on her than that. I think the minute the brain is impacted, which is our computer system, without our main computer system, we can't function. So she couldn't have a conversation. She couldn't have any quality of life at all, and that's terrible. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I think the only thing we can do for our brains is to prevent disease from happening. There's nothing we can do once it's impacted. There's no reversing it—definitively reversing it—that we know of. So I think it means we're making a much bigger change earlier on. And if you do have Alzheimer's, it can start 15, 20, or 30 years earlier. And that's even scarier.
Dr. Jill 12:29
So let's stop there for a moment. I think that what you said is so critical because there's something called subjective cognitive decline in our medical ICD-10s versus early-onset dementia, moderate dementia, or severe dementia in the classifications. I deal a lot with chronic, complex illness and toxicity, so I am not your expert in Alzheimer's. I'll just frame that. I know how to treat it. I help people in the clinic, but I'm not a neurologist in that field. So I'm not as technical, maybe, as that discussion would be.
Dr. Jill 12:57
But having said that, what I see are these young people [in their] 30s, 40s, and 50s—women especially—that have this subjective cognitive decline. And what that means is that they subjectively feel, “I know I am not remembering details”—things, names, places where my keys are–”like I was before, and it's significantly impacting my life.” When that starts to happen, it's almost like a pre-dementia condition. The good news is that what you said is so true. Even with Bredesen's work, we know that with moderate to severe Alzheimer's, there is almost nothing we can do. However, if we find these women in subjective cognitive decline, where they're having symptoms but maybe nobody else hardly notices—they can still function, they can still work, [and] it's not affecting their quality of life before they get into early, moderate or severe dementia—that's when I do believe we can reverse.
Dr. Kavita Desai 13:48
Yes, I agree. We also don't know when it's really, really early on and women are just saying, “I feel like I have brain fog; I walk into a room and I'm not entirely sure why,” is it also perimenopausal symptoms?—because with the loss of estrogen, you're going to get the same thing. I've been asked this before: “With your mom, is there anything you would do differently?” And I was like: “It was hard to say.” She was perimenopausal, so her mood changes… Exactly what you said. She said to me once, “I feel like I forget things,” and that was it. It was in passing. There was no real discussion around it. I just remember her saying that. I was fairly young at the time. It didn't mean anything to me other than that she was perimenopausal. And she herself didn't put that much weight on it. I don't know at what point she realized this was something more than just a little bit of forgetfulness. So many women complain about that. But that is exactly the time. You're right; we can reverse it or at least try to reverse it.
Dr. Jill (pre-recording) 14:49
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Dr. Jill 15:46
So let me just talk to our listeners out there, because we have a lot of women in this age group. I would say my primary population, although I see men and children too, is typically 35- to 65-year-old women. That is most of the women who see me, listen to me, talk to me, and engage. So this is our population. And I would say it's even worse post-COVID because one in five men and women have inflammatory brain symptoms. Really, long COVID affects the whole body but it can [also] affect the brain related to inflammation post-COVID.
Dr. Jill 16:20
And I'll just tell you [about] my personal experience with mold-related toxicity. I had times in my 20s and 30s—with a mold exposure—where I would just feel like I was off. Brain fog is what we called it. So if you're out there listening and you're like: “Huh, I know internally I am not as sharp as I used to be; I'm having forgetfulness, mood issues,” or whatever, take that seriously. Find a doctor who will listen to you because those things are precursors and very, very early signs of something potentially going on. It could be something like auto-immunity, which can affect the brain. It could be something like long COVID, which can affect the brain. So it doesn't mean you have dementia. It doesn't even mean you're going to get Alzheimer's.
Dr. Jill 16:55
But I think I just want to speak to those listeners who are saying they resonate with what you said about your mother and what I said. When you have the start of those symptoms, your functional doctor, who does root cause, can look at toxic load. They can look at mold exposure, hormone status, and all of these things. And actually, we can make a change at that early state versus if you go 10, 20, or 30 years into full-blown dementia.
Dr. Kavita Desai 17:22
That's right. Yes, I totally agree.
Dr. Jill 17:23
So obviously, you just have a fascinating history as a pharmacist because you were really in clinical service, not just in a pharmacy dispensing medications. But you were involved, it sounds like, in different protocols for cardiovascular disease and then pain. I want to talk a little bit about fibromyalgia because that's such a common and mysterious thing. Like, what does that really mean? So talk just a little bit about: What did you learn in the clinic when you were dealing with pain and you saw the fibromyalgia patients and a lot of them were women? Any thoughts or wisdom pieces from that experience?
Dr. Kavita Desai 17:56
Yes, I think, to be honest, we did a lot of, as I mentioned, non-narcotic treatment for fibromyalgia. So it's a lot of neurological pain medications because it is a neuropathic pain. And it's sad, but again, the symptoms—how similar they are to perimenopausal symptoms! And the women are in that age bracket, right? It's brain fog, poor sleep, and gut disruption. And then they just have widespread fatigue and generalized pain where some women couldn't even get out of bed in the morning. I've had them describe that it was like they were elderly, even though they're only in their 30s or 40s, potentially. And it's very difficult to treat. But a lot of the same things we recommend for perimenopausal women work in fibromyalgia as well.
Dr. Kavita Desai 18:44
And I do believe there's a hormone connection there. I happen to have one patient in mind, for instance, who not only had full-blown fibromyalgia but had a very difficult time functioning in her mid to late 30s. But then, when she finally went to have her hormones tested, she had no estrogen production, no progesterone, and no testosterone levels. [They were] all bottomed out. She hadn't had a period in several years. Again, in her mid-30s, she had already gone five or six years without a period. All she was being told until she saw us was, “Well, are you trying to conceive?” And when she said no, they were like, “Well, then it doesn't matter.” Now if I could go back to that practice, knowing what I know, I would probably have had all those women see what their hormone levels were doing because we didn't do that. But in hindsight now, I wouldn't be surprised if some hormone replacement may have helped as well with some of those fibromyalgia symptoms.
Dr. Jill 19:42
Oh, gosh, I love that. Whether it's premature menopause or some sort of surgery [like a] hysterectomy or ovariectomy where you lose ovaries and your uterus in your 30s or even 40s, those are definitely times when you absolutely should be talking to your doctor about bio[identical hormones] unless there's a reason otherwise, which is kind of rare in those younger women. The younger ones, especially, should be talking to their doctor about bioidentical hormone replacement because it is night and day for someone in their 30s and 40s to not have hormones. So I love that you said that. It's so important. And again, please talk to your doctor. We are not giving medical advice.
Dr. Kavita Desai 20:17
No, no, definitely not.
Dr. Jill 20:18
Every situation is different. And there are a few cases where it would be contraindicated. But in many cases, there's a lot of fear. Again, our title here is about complex chronic disease and neurological disease, in particular in women with menopause. But say someone comes in; let's take a patient example: They are 52 years old. They haven't been having periods for two years. They're having a little bit more achiness and pains or feeling the brain fog and the subjective cognitive decline. Maybe they have Hashimoto's or another autoimmune disease. What would you start to say to that person as far as the root cause? Then where would you go with her?
Dr. Kavita Desai 20:56
Yes. I'm not currently diagnosing patients. Right now, my main form is to educate so that they know what's wrong with their bodies. You said something earlier about how if anyone listening happens to have any symptoms, to actually go speak to their practitioner. I think we don't, and we dismiss it oftentimes. I think my whole goal, especially after seeing my mom's trajectory… She didn't say anything. It's heartbreaking now to think that she must have been experiencing so many different things for years and never said anything to any one of us. No one knows your body better than you and what's normal for you, right? There is no normal, first of all, and there is no “What's right for me is right for everybody else.” Our levels are all different. How we feel is different. And I think only we, as women, can truly know when something is amiss. I think if we don't speak up, then we'll never get the treatment that we deserve. I think right now that my goal is to make sure that women recognize when things change for themselves and then advocate for themselves.
Dr. Jill 22:06
I love that so much! And what just came to mind is that I just posted a quote from the book I wrote last year. And it's interesting—exactly what you're saying: The patient knows themselves better than anyone and they're the sole owner of an important key to the healing reserve, an immense potential, the subconscious mind. And we could also say almost the intuition. Women by nature have a very deep intuitive sense of right and wrong in their bodies. I think our culture has trained us to suppress and ignore that sometimes. I call it medical gaslighting.
Dr. Jill 22:38
You can go to your doctor and be like: “Doc, I'm just not feeling like I used to. I'm more tired. My brain isn't quite right. My skin is more dry,” or whatever kinds of things. And the doctor might listen and do some labs and be like: “Well, everything looks okay. You must be fine. Would you like an antidepressant?” Like, “Well, there must be depression here.” And again, [there is] nothing wrong with antidepressants. I prescribe them. I use them. They're appropriate. But not everything that can't be determined on a basic lab panel is depression. And like you said, more power to those women listening: If you don't feel like something is right, you keep seeking to find someone who will listen and help you find the answers.
Dr. Kavita Desai 23:14
Yes. And we don't know even on a blood panel, for instance, when we're like, “Oh, it's in the normal range.” But what does that mean? And what is the standardized normal range? Who was used as the population to determine what a normal range is? What ethnicity? What body size? What gender? It's probably not women, that's for sure. So I think in medicine we don't, to date, look at the full picture. And that's just disheartening. I get that practitioners are overworked. It's underfunded. There's all that. But I think that's why it really does behoove a patient to advocate for themselves and to know when something's definitely not feeling right, regardless of what the blood work says. And finding a practitioner who will look at everything [is important], because, like you said, there could be so many different causes for the same symptom, right? It's not always a singular diagnosis.
Dr. Jill 24:07
It's so important. I would love to hear your thoughts. When you look back at your mother's experience and by the time things got significant, I bet you would love to go back and tell your mom… It sounds like she was very quiet about it until it got significant. And you, looking back, probably wonder, did she have these things a lot sooner? And maybe she wasn't really sharing. Or that whole generation is so commonly long-suffering, right?
Dr. Kavita Desai 24:31
Yes. Right. And I don't know—was she telling my dad, who's not very communicative and then he just dismissed it? Probably, right? I don't doubt that that is probably what happened. I wasn't living at home anymore. When I visited her, she didn't tell me, which is very sad. And if I could, I would 100% want to go back and intervene sooner. But I'd like to look at the silver lining that I've taken something very terrible and hopefully try to impact other women to maybe catch it sooner.
Dr. Jill 25:06
Yes, I love that. And I want to just say as well that I think you've done an amazing job of taking the difficulties of life and really transforming them into a passion and purpose that is helping so many women. One of the things you've done is create some supplements and things that are related to women in their menopausal years. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you've done recently as a pharmacist to help humanity and these women?
Dr. Kavita Desai 25:28
Yes. So it's actually a supplement system that I created for myself, to be honest. That's how it all came to be after my mom was diagnosed. I became very concerned about my own brain health. I wanted to make as many changes to my life as I could, based on what we know about the disease and what the risk factors are. A lot of them are lifestyles—being active, reducing stress, improving sleep—all of those things. But we also know that vitamin D—low levels of vitamin D, which the majority of the population really has—we don't have optimized vitamin D levels. So things like that. Getting enough omega-3.
Dr. Kavita Desai 26:08
But as I started to do more research, I wanted to take enough supplements to make sure I was addressing all of these risk factors because I don't trust that my diet alone is going to do what I need to do for disease prevention. We don't know and we only have one chance at this, right? I can't say, 10 years from now, “Oh, I should have fixed this.” It's too late. So I'm trying to address everything all at once as much as I can. It means taking supplements that can help reduce my stress levels, like adaptogens, some new tropics that help with brain function, magnesium, vitamin D, and omega-3. And it ended up being handfuls of pills in doses that weren't always adequate. So now I'm taking a lot of filler to try to get all the dosing that I would like for disease prevention.
Dr. Kavita Desai 26:55
So this is how essential it came to be, which is a supplement system that I've created where it's 48 ingredients that I wanted to be taking every day that's been blended down into 14 tablets/capsules. It has everything from functional mushrooms to omega-3s and magnesium, ashwagandha, and all the ingredients that I would like to be taking every day. And for women, I wanted it to be easier because I think we're already stressed and busy. We're taking care of everyone around us, and who's taking care of us? I think I want women to prioritize their health and make it as simple as possible for them. So that's kind of how this came into existence.
Dr. Jill 27:38
Actually, I love that. And just to simplify, you're right. If you look at the handful of stuff that I take every day, it's a lot. You're right, for those of us who really want to perform well and prevent disease… I just got done doing an interview with Dr. Jeff Bland and our soils are depleted. Therefore, the magnesium content of an apple today is about a fifth or less than that of a few years ago. So even if you're eating a good organic, clean diet, you're often eating a nutrient-depleted diet just because of our soils.
Dr. Kavita Desai 28:08
And also the chemical use, right? We've oversprayed—in generations where we didn't realize how toxic it was. Our ground soils are contaminated, and our water is contaminated. So I advocate for filtering water. And no matter how clean we try to eat and how many cruciferous vegetables I try to include in a day, I'm not confident that it's necessarily enough. It is definitely a good start for sure. But I believe we have to address it from all angles. Otherwise, maybe we're not necessarily getting enough of what we need.
Dr. Jill 28:42
I could not agree more. Sometimes it gets so complex, right? I always say, “Clean air, clean water, clean food.” And even if you're doing clean air, clean water, and clean food, the clean food that you're eating is probably not nutrient-dense enough nowadays as it was. So I feel like I'm very, very pro-supplements because we really want to get those. And often we're using nutrients, as you know as a pharmacist, literally pushing a biochemical pathway in a certain direction. If we give extra B6 or extra B12 or extra magnesium or zinc… For example, if someone has high copper and low zinc, you can give them zinc and actually bring down the copper, and that can affect hormones and all of those things. So a lot of times we're actually manipulating in a really positive way those chemical pathways. So I love that and I love that you've tried to simplify it.
Dr. Kavita Desai 29:28
Yes, it was too complicated to count it all out every day.
Dr. Jill 29:33
[inaudible] pharmacists, right? So as we close here, what is the one thing that you wish every menopausal woman would know or would take away?
Dr. Kavita Desai 29:44
To get rid of that stereotypical statement that this is normal for you. Nothing is normal and nothing is the same from one woman to another, so know that if you're feeling something, you're right. And it's okay to be the squeaky wheel that demands care and proper care.
Dr. Jill 30:06
So well said. And where can people find you, your products, and your information? Give us the websites. We'll be sure to include them wherever you're listening.
Dr. Kavita Desai 30:14
Sure. Yes, our website is revivele.com. And on Instagram, we're @revivele.ink.
Dr. Jill 30:21
Awesome. Kavita, thank you so much for taking difficulty and suffering and transforming it into something that's helping so many women. And thank you for coming on today!
Dr. Kavita Desai 30:33
Thank you so much for having me!
![204: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Can our Minds Spontaneously Transform our Health? Bruce Lipton Dr. Jill 00:00 Hey guys, I am so excited to announce that the movie that you've been waiting for, the documentary Doctor/Patient, is now available for rent or purchase at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Check out the trailer here. 00:13 Dr. Jill: When I really knew something was wrong, was when I started having trouble walking up the stairs. I was supposed to be grateful and happy and healing and well and thriving, but I did not feel that way. I was so sick. Like always, I wanted to find an answer, and I had to figure it out. And I had to figure it out to save my own life. So I dove in. 00:38 James Maskell: Jill is the leading voice in biotoxin illness and chronic conditions that are driven by toxicity. 00:43 Bree Argetsinger: Oh my gosh, you're dealing with mold? You have to work with Dr. Jill Carnahan. 00:47 Patient 1: Dr. Jill is the first person that actually began to shed some light on the problem. 00:53 Dr. Jill: What I do is listen to the patient, and we together talk about what else is possible. 00:59 Patient 2: I don't know why I'm crying. 01:02 Patient 3: She saved my life. 01:06 Dr. Jill: The deepest lessons and most profound insights come in the suffering, come in the dark moments. Self-compassion is the healing transition that shifts something inside of us. It's actually the thing that we need most in order to heal. 01:26 Narrator: Doctor/Patient—available now at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Dr. Jill 01:36 Hey, welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Jill. In each episode, we dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research, empowering you with knowledge and wisdom to overcome illness in your journey to optimal health. Dr. Jill 02:02 Hey guys, if you don't already know, if you've been around me at all, you know my movie, Doctor/Patient is now out. You can view it, share it, gift it, or rent it at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Be sure to check it out and then I would love to hear your feedback after you've had a chance to watch it. Dr. Jill 02:19 Today, I am deeply honored to have guest Bruce Lipton here with me. He's a PhD, a cell biologist, a lecturer, and an internationally recognized leader in bridging science and spirit. We were just talking before we came on about how he has been a leader [for] decades before a lot of us in functional/integrative medicine came along. And I am so excited! If you're a doctor listening—and I know I have a lot of audience there—you are in for a treat. If you're a patient, you're also in for a treat. Stay tuned. Dr. Jill 02:47 Bruce was on the faculty of the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and later performed groundbreaking stem cell research at Stanford University. He's a best-selling author of The Biology of Belief—if you haven't read that book, it's a classic now—The Honeymoon Effect, and the co-author with Steve Bhaerman of Spontaneous Evolution. Bruce received his prestigious 2009 Goi Peace Award from Japan in honor of his scientific contribution to world harmony. Bruce, it is a true honor and delight to have you here! Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 03:17 Jill, I am a happy person to be here because this audience that I get a chance to talk to, to me, is a very important audience. These are the cultural creatives that are paving the way for the future that we need to get into very soon because we're facing an evolutionary upheaval at this very moment. Whether you watch the news, surf the web, or even look out your window, the whole planet has experienced chaos at every level of it. People are focusing on the little chaos, like focusing on the trees, without pulling back to see the biggest thing that's happening and nobody's saying the words. NASA—Let me just say NASA's words. NASA has recognized that within the next 20 years, civilization is facing—and this is my emphasis here—an irreversible collapse. The reason is so mathematically simple. Let me give the math. Dr. Jill 04:16 Sure. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 04:17 Science has recognized that to continue living just the way we're living—just say, let's every day live the way we're living today on this planet—it takes 1.6 planet Earths to provide the resources for today's civilization. The simple math is this: There's one Earth subtracted from 1.6, and we're recognizing: "Where the hell are we getting the extra points?" Dr. Jill 04:39 We're in a deficit. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 04:40 And that deficit is leading to the destruction of the web of life. We have to also recognize this: Even though the Bible is giving us some fanciful story that nature was created and then humans were added on top of nature—no, we evolved from nature. We are nature. If nature goes down, humans go down, because we are part of this web of life. Our separation in our consciousness [that causes us to believe] that we can dominate nature, I say, "How's that working?" I say, "We're facing an extinction." That's a biological reality at this moment. It's called a mass extinction. It happened five times in the history of this planet: Life was thriving, [then] mass extinction. It knocked it all out and then it started again. We are there because of our behavior. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 05:33 And I say, "Our behavior is based on our consciousness." I go: "Okay, wait a second. Is that New Age?" I go: "No, let's stop. No New Age here at this moment." [In] 1927—day one, quantum physics—Max Planck, the founding father of quantum physics, states: "The mind is the creator of our life experiences." Quantum physics—the most valid of all the sciences today in the sense of its predictions and accuracy. Quantum physics. And it's still the belief in quantum physics: Consciousness is controlling this. And I go: "So if consciousness is controlling this, then why are we in such a mess?" The answer is: We have been programmed, and the programming has disempowered us all. It has disempowered us as patients. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 06:28 I go: "I'll give you a program that disempowers you right now." I say, "What is it?" "It's called genetic determinism." That was what I was teaching in medical school: Genes control the character of life. I go: "Did we pick the genes as far as we know? No. But if we don't like the characters we have, can we change the genes? No, can't do that." And then let's just add a little tidbit: Genes turn on and off by themselves. And I say: "You put those together and what have you done? You have told the patients that their lives are not in their control, they're controlled by their heredity, and that they're victims of heredity. Which is victims of what? Genetics. And what does a person know about genetics? Nothing. Who does know something? The doctor. Aha! The program is: When it comes to health, people do not trust themselves." They say: "I need an expert opinion. I'm not knowledgeable." They accept the truth from somebody else. Dr. Jill 07:28 I so love the direction that you're going here because, as a physician, one of the most important things I can do is empower the patient and make sure that they don't think that I am the end-all-be-all. [I want them to know] that we are collaborating and that I listen to them, and I say: "How do you feel about this treatment plan? Where do you want to go?" Granted, if I have wisdom, I can give them that information, but they still get to make that decision. But so many patients are outsourcing that wisdom to someone. Or, at least paternalistically and historically, that has been the way. And what we need to do is take control of our own health. Dr. Jill 08:00 How many patients have gone through a loved one with breast cancer—I'm a breast cancer survivor, so I can speak on this—and they're told, "You have the BRCA gene and you need to have a bilateral mastectomy"? I'm going to be strong about this because I disagree. That's an action out of fear. To each his own, so if you've been out there and have done something based on your genetics, there's no judgment here. But what we're saying is that you actually have control over the expression of those genes. So why don't you go into epigenetics for those who don't know what that means and tell us a little primer on epigenetics and why we have more control than we think? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 08:34 Okay. The most important thing—and this is all scientific, so this is not any new age BS here, folks, this is science—I say: "What is it?" The belief that genes turn on and off is a completely false statement because a gene is a blueprint to make a protein. The proteins are the building blocks. Proteins wear out; you have to replace them. So you have to have a blueprint. It's called a gene. I go, "It's a blueprint!" I go, "Why is that relevant?" I say: "Go to an architect's office. She's working on a blueprint. You ask her, 'Hey, is your blueprint on or off?' She would look at you like, 'What are you talking about? There's no on and off to a blueprint.'" I go: "Aha! Aha! A gene is a blueprint. What you want to find out is: Who's the architect who reads the blueprint? The blueprint does not read itself. There's an architect." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 09:24 I saw this in my research in 1967. None of you were probably old enough to know what I'm talking about—1967! But I was cloning stem cells. Let's give the real name of a stem cell: An embryonic cell. It's an embryo's cell. It replaces things that are broken and gets a new one. I go: "So what? I clone the stem cell." I say, "What's that?" I say: "You put one stem cell in the culture dish. And then what? It divides every 10 or 12 hours." So first there's one, then there's 2, then there's 4, 8, and 16. A week later, [there are] 30,000 cells in the petri dish. What's the most important fact? They all came from one parent. I have 30,000 genetically identical cells. I split them into three petri dishes—one, two, three. Each dish has 10,000, 10,000, 10,000, all genetically the same. We grow cells in a culture medium. Ah, this is going to be the tricky part, for when you get this, the world changes. I'm going to come back to it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 10:27 I say: "A culture medium is what the cells grow in in the lab. And I make it up by putting the chemistry or culture medium. Since I'm creating it, I can change some of the constituents. So I make three different versions of culture medium, A, B, and C." So I say, "So what?" Each one represents a different environment because the cells live in a culture medium. So I say: "Okay, dish one, environment A—the cells form muscle. Dish two, environment B—the cells form bone. Dish three, environment C—the cells form fat cells." I'm doing this experiment. I'm teaching genetic determinism, and I'm watching the cells and going— Dr. Jill 11:10 Wait a second. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 11:11 —"Wait a second, who controlled the activity?" They were all genetically the same. What was different? The environment. The chemistry of the environment selected the genes. The genes did not select themselves. Then, all of a sudden, I said, "Why is this important?" It's a revolution! I'll tell you why. Genetic determinism: Victim. The new science, epigenetics, which I'll explain: Master. Why? Because you control the environment. It's the environment that controls the cells. It's called epigenetics. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 11:48 [There's a] simple reason why the name [is what it is]. What do we call skin? Epidermis. Why? What's under the skin? A layer called dermis. What's the skin above the dermis? Epidermis. Epi: Above. Epigenetics: Control above the genes. I go, "Whoa, the control is not in the genes." I said: "No, it's to control the environment that the genes live in." I go, "Well, wait, I control the environment." Aha! If you control the environment, then you control the genetics. And that's all of a sudden where the new science comes in. The genetic determinism: Victim. Epigenetics: Master. You control your genes. So basically, what I saw back in 1967 was, "The genes didn't make this decision." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 12:48 Now let's just jump ahead a second here because that's a basic science. And then I'm going to give you this, which you're totally aware of: You are a skin-covered petri dish. You have 50 trillion cells under your skin and you have the original culture medium. What is a culture medium? I didn't say it before, but I'll tell you where it is: A laboratory version of blood. When I grow human cells, I concoct a culture medium based on the constituents of human blood or mouse blood, depending on which cells I'm growing. What's the point? You are a skin-covered culture dish with what? The original culture medium. You have the blood. The blood carries the chemistry, which activates the genes. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 13:34 So the first point: Scientifically, it doesn't make a difference if the cell is in a plastic dish or a skin dish? I said, "No, it's the environment." And I say the environment in your body is the blood for the cells. Then come two questions that blow the game into a new evolution. Question number one: What controls the chemistry of the blood? The answer is the brain. It's the chemist. The big one—here it is, hold on: What chemistry should the brain put into the blood? You know what it is? Whatever picture you hold in your mind, the brain translates the picture into complimentary chemistry that matches the picture. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 14:25 I say, "So why is this important?" The picture in your head becomes material in your body. You manifest what you're thinking. I go: "Wait a minute. Would I manifest this life? Would I manifest my cancer?" I go, "Yes." I go, "You say that so affirmatively." I go: "Quantum physics—the most valid science principle number one [is that] the mind is the creator of our experience." I go: "Well, epigenetics is the biological component of that physics mechanism." Epigenetics is how the mind adjusts the genetics of the body. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 15:05 And I go, "We're facing a healthcare crisis on this planet." I go, "Yes, we are facing a healthcare crisis." And I go, "What's responsible?" We put all the money into science. You know what we're looking for? We're looking for the gene—the gene that controls that problem. Guess what? Less than 1% of all diseases on this planet have any connection with genes. Wait, then that means only less than 1% of what we diagnose as disease is connected with genes. I go, "Yes, that's a fact." Then what is really contributing to the worldwide crisis in healthcare? The answer is: Stress is 90% the cause of disease, minimum. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 15:54 I go: "Okay, come on! How could that do that?" Let's give the biology because it's not New Age again. You're ready? When you're in stress, you're in threat. When you're in threat, you engage a protection response. I say, "What is a protection response?" The protection response is: When you perceive stress, you will release stress hormones, adrenal hormones. I go, "Yes, so what?" Well, what do you think the adrenal hormones do? They prepare the body for fight or flight. I go, "So what?" I say: "First of all, there are three stages to take a body from health, happiness, joy—I'm in the garden, I love my life—to 'Ah! A sabertooth tiger's chasing me!'" I say, "So I have to switch from growth, boom, into protection." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 16:41 How does that happen? Three steps. Number one, stress hormones cause the blood vessels in the gut to constrict. Why? Because most of the blood is in the gut. I say, "Who cares?" I say: "Ah, but the blood is a source of energy. So if you need energy, you need blood." So I say, "So what's the point?" I say: "Most of the blood is in the gut, taking care of the body, cleaning, fixing, repairing, nourishing, and doing all those things. But the moment stress hormones come in, the blood vessels squeeze shut. People feel it in the body." "It's queasy. I feel very queasy when I'm in fear like this." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 17:16 I say: "But some people say butterflies in the stomach. Why?" The fluttering of the blood vessels shutting down—you can feel it. And it's a fluttering. And what's happening? The blood is being pushed to the arms and legs, and that's where I need to run away from that damn tiger. So number one, redistribute the blood. Where do I take it from? [From] growth and maintenance to protection. So I'm not funding growth and maintenance when I'm running from the tiger. I go, "No, you're not." Number two, the immune system is to protect me on the inside. If I'm being chased by a saber-toothed tiger, then what's the value of the immune system? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 17:55 I'll give you a scenario. Come on, doctors, listen to this. The patient's got a bacterial infection. They're going to have a real bad case of diarrhea coming up here and they're being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. How would you split the energy of the body? How much to support the immune system and how much of that energy to run away from the saber-toothed tiger? I'll give you a second. Okay, thank you. The answer is, of course, who cares about the immune system? If the tiger chased you, the bacteria are not your problem anymore, that's for sure. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 18:26 Listen, stress hormones shut down the immune system to conserve energy. And you know damn well that when people are sick, sometimes they don't even have the energy to get out of bed because the immune system uses a hell of a lot of energy. If you're being chased by a tiger: I can't support the immune system because if the tiger gets me, who cares about what's happening in the interior?—it's not mine anymore. It's so important—in fact, therapeutic—that when they transplant an organ from person A into person B and they don't want immunological rejection, they give the recipient stress hormones before the operation. That restricts the function of the immune system so it doesn't immediately reject the foreign graft. Ah, so stress hormones are used therapeutically to shut off the immune system. So I say, "Yes, what do you think stress does automatically?" That's number two. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 19:21 Number three, conscious processing is slow compared to reflex behavior. Conscious [processing] is like, "Oh, let me think." Reflex is boom! Boom! Like that. The point is, if you're running from a saber-toothed tiger, conscious processing is going to delay your nervous system because you'll be thinking. When that tiger is coming, guess what? Remember the role of the stress hormone—to squeeze the blood vessels here? They squeeze the blood vessels in the forebrain. I say, "Why?" Because it stops the blood flow from going to the conscious mind. Where's it going? The hindbrain—reflex behavior. Result: We become less intelligent in the fear process. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 20:11 So I say: "Let's put these all together. I shut down growth, I shut down the immune system, and I shut off conscious awareness." I go: "When was that system formed?" "Oh, a couple hundred thousand years ago." I say: "What was it responding to?" "The saber-toothed tiger?" I go: "So what was important?" "If you escape that tiger for five minutes or ten minutes, there's no more saber-toothed tiger, no more stress." So it was used for five to ten minutes. Shut it down [for] five to ten minutes; we'll come back later. In today's world—you know the whole thing—every day, every minute, we're in stress. The system was never designed for chronic stress. It shuts down the vitality, health, and maintenance of the body. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 21:01 The stresses of this world are responsible for over 90% of healthcare crises. This is recognized by the American Psychological Society: 95% of visits to doctors' offices [are] stress-related. I was a programmer. And I'm not proud now because, when I programmed, people used to believe in genetic determinism. I go: "No, no. I was wrong. Epigenetics, okay?" But we've been programmed to be victims. Dr. Jill 21:32 Yes. First of all, I think doctors are starting, at least in my realm of functional/integrative—we're talking epigenetics; we're using this. And I just want to share a personal example to bring home what you just shared. It's so important. Many of my listeners know that at 25, I had breast cancer, then Crohn's disease, and then autoimmunity. I'm the poster child. What I remember very clearly is that in my 30s, I got mold-related toxicity. My immune system was terribly trashed and overactive and I was under high stress. I remember one day walking along and realizing: "This stress that is in my body is actually killing me." I had the mentality [of] "beating cancer," "fighting cancer," "fighting this," "fighting that"—fighting, fighting, fighting—which is your saber-toothed tiger [description]. I was in fight or flight. Dr. Jill 22:16 The day I realized that was the day I realized I could also reprogram my immune system through my thoughts. That day I started thinking [up] a new paradigm, thinking about these little yellow minions being my immune system. They were helping escort mold toxicity out of my body without this fight because, [in] fight or flight, there's no healing. And now, today, I'm healed from that and from mold-related illness and all of this. But it's really that moment when I realized I could change my thought process, change the function of my immune system, recover from Crohn's, cancer, and toxic mold, and no longer fight. Dr. Jill 22:53 And the most important message, as you brought home, is that when I'm sitting with a patient, if they're in fear, if they are in fight or flight, and if they are feeling unsafe in their body, there is no amount of pills, supplements, IVs, nutrition, or even good advice that I can give them… Unless they go to that place of unsafeness, that place of fear, that place where they're still somatically running from the tiger. We have to change that, and it starts with this. Dr. Jill 23:22 So I love, love, love that you framed this. And I just want to give you credit because you've been doing this work for decades before anyone else was talking about it. And now we're seeing it. And finally, doctors in my field are starting to acknowledge and talk about it. But even in my field, functional medicine is a lot about supplements, diet, and lifestyle. That's all great. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 23:40 Well, that's environment! Dr. Jill 23:41 Right? Right. Actually, that's the thing I was going to mention too. My specialty is environmental toxicity, so I know the petri dish of how it affects our bodies. But I do believe, as you're saying, that this reprogramming of our mind… Do you have any stories or examples, maybe from your book, of a patient, client, or somebody who has read your book who really took this and changed from there? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 24:03 I've got hundreds and hundreds of letters from people who've written. There were two things about this. Let me express it even in my personal life. I understood this from a scientific point of view. Man, it was in my laboratory, my research. It was repeatable; I could do this all the time. It took 23 years before science caught up with that observation. I [inaudible] a lot of other things in between to conform. And the reality is that our own understanding about our frailty—it's an understanding. And then I give an understanding of, "No, we're very powerful." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 24:42 I was so happy to go and find an audience of doctors and people: "Let me explain how to create the most wonderful life. Here's the science!" And then they'd come to my lecture and they'd look at me and go: "Lipton, your life doesn't look that good for a guy who says you know this." Oh my God, I was caught. You know what it was? Talking the talk, not walking the talk. I knew the science. It was in my head. Did I make it part of my life? No! I say: "So what was the point? I don't care how smart you are; if you don't make a part of your life, it's irrelevant." Totally! Then all of a sudden, when I caught myself going, "Oh, do as I say, not as I do," it's like, "I can't do that!" So I had to say: "Stop lecturing. Start living your life with the principles you are telling other people. Live this now." How long did it take me to change my life? Oh, within a month, my life was completely on a whole different spectrum. And it was like, "Now, of course, I start talking about it again," because it was real. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 25:47 Let me just give a simple understanding, a scientific understanding, and that is this: The mind is not one thing. "Oh, the mind." I go: "No, not the mind. There are two minds. And they're interdependent, but they have different functions." The conscious mind, the latest evolution: The prefrontal cortex, right behind your forehead, [is] the seat of the conscious mind. What's that? The conscious mind is your source, your personal identity, your spiritual place. What else is it? It's creative! That's what makes humans different than all the other animals. We can take ideas, boom, build them, and create in the conscious mind. What about the subconscious mind? Oh, the original one? Hard drive, programs, habits, stored behavior. Thinking? Uh-uh. Just behavior—program. Dr. Jill 26:38 The subconscious has no way to differentiate truth, right? It does whatever you tell it to do. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 26:44 No, well, the subconscious doesn't do what you tell it to do; it does what it tells it to do. The subconscious is the autopilot. I say, yes, the mind works, but you have to understand that when I'm in the conscious mind, that is the creative side. That's the side with wishes, desires, and aspirations. What do you want? Conscious mind. Subconscious mind: Program. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 27:09 I say, "So what's the issue with our life when it comes down to it?" The monkey wrench that blows the whole thing out is that when the conscious mind is thinking, it's not paying attention to the outer world. A thought is inside. When you're present, your conscious mind is looking at the world and engaging the world. Right now, in front of it, I'm engaging it. But if I'm thinking, my conscious mind is no longer looking out; it's looking in because a thought is on the inside. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 27:38 So I say, "Wait, what if I'm driving the car and I have a thought?" And I've got to tell you, in fact: Then you're not driving the car. "What do you mean? No accident or nothing." I say: "Driving is a program. You don't have to think about driving." In fact, most of the time, if you've been driving for a long time, you never think about the details of driving. It's an automatic behavioral program. It plays when you're not paying attention. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 28:02 I go: "Aha! When the conscious mind is thinking, it's not paying attention to the outer world. Why? It's inside." So I say: Walking, driving, talking, doing your job—hey, those are habits. You've been doing it all—whatever [it is]—for a long period of time. You don't have to re-learn it. It's automatic. Do you even have to think about walking? No, you didn't even have to say: "Oh, I'm going to walk from here to there. I'm going to get that." I say: "Walking is automatic. You don't think about it—program." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 28:37 So then comes the number and this is scientific: Ninety-five percent of the day is the average person's amount of thinking. Then what does that represent? Biologically, only five percent of the day are you creating your life with the conscious mind's wishes and desires. Ninety-five percent of the day your life is coming from programs that you downloaded mainly before age seven. And I go, "Where did I get the programs?" I go: "Before age seven, your brain is not primarily functioning at the level of consciousness, which in EEG terms is alpha, beta, and gamma. When you're under seven, you're operating primarily at theta, which is just below consciousness." Theta—imagination. Hey, the tea party: Pour nothing into the cup. Drink the nothing. "The best tea I ever had in my life!" That's imagination. That's theta. That's what kids do all the time. They can have imaginary friends. They play with them all the time. It's imagination. Theta is hypnosis. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 29:41 I go, "Why is that important?" How many rules does it take to be a member of a family? How many rules does it take to be a member of a community? Now we're talking thousands. I go, "Why is that important?" I said, "Well, teach an infant a thousand rules." I go: "They can't read a book. They can't sit in a classroom. They can't understand a video." I said: "How are they going to learn?" Nature took care of that. Nature gave the first seven years theta, which is hypnosis. You want to know the behavior? Watch your mother, watch your father, watch your community. Watch their behavior; download it. Now it's your behavior! Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 30:19 So the behavior that's in your subconscious mind didn't even come from you, did it? Nope, it came from other people. And did they answer your wishes and desires—what you'd like? Not necessarily. So then, are there programs in there that give you what your wishes and desires are? Not necessarily, no. In fact, I say, "So what about these programs?" Sixty percent of the things you downloaded as a kid—sixty percent of the subconscious programs [are] disempowering, self-sabotaging, and limiting beliefs. And you operate ninety-five percent of the day from them. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 30:53 Ah, but here's the monkey wrench you didn't catch! Why am I using my subconscious programs? Because my conscious mind's not paying attention; it's thinking. Well, then, do you see the programs when they come out? I go: "Nope! You're the only one who doesn't even see the program!" Why? Everybody else around you is responding to your program. You're not even paying attention [to] what the hell is coming out. Sixty percent of it [is] disempowering yourself. So the issue is this: We are not controlling our lives. Our program controls our lives. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 31:28 I say, "Oh, this is a new science." I go: "Scientifically, this is valid. This is understanding theta activity, downloading programs, conscious, subconscious, blah, blah, blah, blah." But the Jesuits knew about programming for 400 years. They would tell their followers, "Give me a child until it is seven, and I will show you the man." Oh my God, that's 100% right! The programming is before age seven, and 95% of the life is the program. They knew it. They created Catholic schools to help the programming go along. And that idea is never lost because if you can watch an infant today, which I've seen carrying an iPad, interacting with a program on a computer, that's far better programming than Jesuits could ever have thought of. Dr. Jill 32:17 Yes, it's clear, isn't it? That's a really good transition because one of the things I see as the biggest crisis in healthcare is environment, but it's environment that is no longer socially interactive or present. We're numbing ourselves out with machines, with iPads, and with phones. They are designed to create an addictive behavior, so they're tapping into some of those subconscious programs, right? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 32:40 And let me just add this to that: It's not just that behavior, but it's also creating disempowering behaviors. So these programs—as you were just going to say, and I'll let you have it back again—were not designed to help us; they were designed to control us. Dr. Jill 33:05 Yes. And sell and control. Yes, so we are pawns in this new world of technology that is neurodynamically designed to be addictive. If you haven't seen The Social Dilemma, that's a great place to start in your education on social media and the impact. I do want to talk about this. One of the things you just got done saying is that before seven, we're programmed. I totally understand and believe that. But the truth is, we have the power to change that programming. Tell us about that. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 33:36 Most everybody out there has changed that programming. I say, "You've already done it." I say: "What, the movie The Matrix, being a documentary, everybody's programmed?" Yes, of course, that's the foundational belief of the movie and the reality. And in the movie, they offered the red pill. And I say: "What was the red pill? You get out of the program!" Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 33:54 I go, "Almost everybody out here right now listening has done that." I say: "What was the consequence? How did it happen?" I'm going to tell you. Falling in love is a red pill. I go, "What do you mean?" Because when you first fall in love, you stop thinking. Biologically, you stay present; you stay in the conscious, creative mind. You've waited for this person your whole life. They're there. What, you want to start thinking and then ignore them? Are you kidding me? You stay up conscious. You stay mindful. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 34:23 I say, "So what happened?" I say: "Your life up to meeting that person: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You meet them [and] 24 hours later: 'Oh, man, life is beautiful. Life is so wonderful. Hey, the food's really good. That music is even better than I ever thought it was.'" And even the crappy job is not so crappy. I said: "What'd you do?" You made honeymoon. What's honeymoon? Heaven on earth. I said, "What was your heaven on earth?" Whatever you wished and desired. You and a partner coming together when you're both wishing and desiring, you're sharing the same wishes and desires, you manifest a honeymoon. Oops, I dropped something, but okay. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 35:01 Is the honeymoon already there? I go, "The honeymoon's always there." I said, "Then how come you don't have it?" Because when you start thinking, you then go back to subconscious control, the default. And the problem is, why do 50% of marriages end up in divorce? The answer is this: Marriage has started with the relationship of two conscious creative minds sharing together a belief in creating a honeymoon, and it ends when thinking enters into the people and they start playing their regular programs, which are 60% negative. The partner hears these programs. The one saying the thing doesn't hear it; the other one hears it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 35:43 I love the response. When somebody comes out in a relationship and the loving partner hears some kind of BS come out of their other partner, they look at them and go: "Who are you? Where did you come from?" What? It was never part of the behavior. And then, all of a sudden, it shows up. And the more thinking, the more that negativity shows up. There's a point where a partner will say: "That's enough. That's not why I signed up here. I signed up because we had a great honeymoon." After you started thinking, this thing went right down the tube. The point is, that's what reality is about. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 36:18 So the idea then becomes simple, which is the obvious thing: "What if I created all programs that represented my wishes and desires—if I had those programs?" I said: "Oh, you know what? Whether you're consciously creating those wishes and desires or your conscious mind is off in left field, your subconscious will be manifesting the wishes and desires. And guess what? A honeymoon is not a short period. A honeymoon is every day of your life for as long as you live." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 36:46 Does it work? Personally, I had some very bad programming when I was young because my mother and father had a dysfunctional relationship. I downloaded my father's dysfunctional behavior. I played it when I couldn't see it. The result is that I couldn't get relationships off the ground. Then I understood the nature of the programming. Then I understand the nature of reprogramming. Around 50, I met my partner, Margaret. We just celebrated 28 years! And I'm not selling just a relationship; I'm talking honeymoon for 28 years. To wake up every day in my life and go: "Oh my God, I'm still here. Oh my God, I have another day to smell the roses, to have a piece of cake, to enjoy the love, watch the environment, and love my life." I celebrate life. Jill celebrates life. What's the result? Where's the illness? What illness? Dr. Jill 37:45 Yes! I love that. There are some points that I think are so crucial that you just made, number one, being present with our partners, watching them in real time and observing them. So often we create a program of them, a template, and then we don't expect them to change. Or, we expect them to behave the same. And when we're in real time, present with another person—whether it's a friend, family member, business associate, or lover—we can respond in real time. And that's part of that co-creation that you're talking about. It's crucial. Dr. Jill 38:15 The other thing is that with illness, I find one thing that was—I'm sure this is related to the program, [and] I'd love your comments—I never identified with the cancer. I never became the cancer. I never made that part of who I was. Even now, I'm like, "Oh yes, 20 years ago, I had cancer." And of course, it's real, but it's almost foreign because it was never part of me. And I really believe that's a huge part of why I overcame a very, very aggressive cancer at the age of 25—because it never was my identity. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 38:44 Yes, let's just talk about this. The first thing is that I'm going to give a fact of science [to] which [a person might say], "He really said that?" And I'm going to say, yes, I'm going to say this. There's not one gene that causes cancer. There's not a gene [where], "You have this gene, you get cancer." The one scary one for women, of course, [is] the breast cancer gene. I go, "So what?" I go: "Women who carry the breast cancer gene don't necessarily have to have cancer. As a matter of fact, nearly half of them don't get cancer. But they have the gene." So then I say, "Then where did the cancer come from?"—because those who have the cancer with the gene and those who are healthy with the gene have the same gene. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 39:20 What's the difference? The answer is this: Cancer is correlated with a gene, not caused by a gene. Cancer is caused by disharmony in the system. Disharmony is the source of disease. Harmony is the source of health. Disharmony means your programming wasn't really good, and you're responding to things in a negative way that is going to cause a breakdown of the system. That's where the stress comes into it. So the concept is this: The image—even if once you tell a woman, "Yes, you have the breast cancer gene," what the hell image do you think is going to be in her head? The answer is: Cancer. I go: "Yes, but isn't the function of the mind to take the image of the head and turn it into reality?" I go, "Absolutely! What's the consequence?" Ninety percent of cancer has no genetic linkage at all. Dr. Jill 40:14 Yes. That was the biggest question I got as a 25-year-old. Every single person, to a T: "Oh, did you have genes?" No, I didn't have genes. I had a dysfunctional system when I was in my 20s. That goes into a whole other lecture that I could give, but I was not living consciously. And there were some things, stress-wise, that were contributing. And it was the environmental toxic load. So all of these things are the petri dish. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 40:38 And more than that, there must have been the two programs. Eighty to ninety percent of all people will not test positive for two beliefs. Number one, and I think the most important, is the belief, "I love myself." Eighty percent of people will not test positive for that belief. Number two, and this is the one where the healthcare crisis comes from: "I am safe." When you have a picture of fear, then the chemistry of fear is to manifest the fear. When they say "This is it" and [show you] a picture of the tumor and everything, then you make the chemistry of the tumor. Then the idea is that we have to own quantum physics. Consciousness is the source of our life experiences. We have to understand the nature of epigenetics. Consciousness is the source of what controls our genes. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 41:07 The third thing that I think is part of the Renaissance that we really must emphasize at some point is Newtonian physics, which separates physical from non-physical, matter versus energy. It's an illusion. It's not real. But it programs us in a very bad way because the program says: "Whatever is made out of matter can only be affected by matter. Whatever is made out of energy can only be affected by energy." And I say, "So what's the consequence?" I say: "The body is matter. And what do you think the whole foundation of the pharmaceutical company is? The body is matter and we make the matter to fix the matter." Dr. Jill 42:16 Yes. What's the matter with that? [laughs] Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 42:18 Three hundred thousand people die in the US every year from prescription drugs, that's what's the matter with it, when less than 50,000—I think 30,000—people die from illegal drugs. We have a war on illegal drugs, and 300,000 people dying from pharmaceutical drugs is called the cost of doing medicine. I go: "That's damn expensive! We don't need that." Simple law of science: If a drug works, it only works because you already had a receptor for that drug on you. Do you think nature put receptors on cells, waiting for the pharmaceutical company to make a drug? No, come on, man! If you have a receptor for a drug, it's because you have a receptor for a drug that you make. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 43:01 I go, "I can make any drug." Of course, because any drug works because you have a receptor to connect it. If you have a receptor, then you obviously have a signal that will bind to that receptor. Then you say, "Well, it's not working." And that's where everything gets screwed up because that system isn't working and then you go right away: "Oh, the body is defective. The genes aren't working right. There's an interference with the physical." I go, "Yes, there was an interference because it didn't start down here; it started up here." And once you start to understand this, yes, treat the body if there's an immediate need to treat the body, but the process of treating the patient is treating this part. Knowledge is power. They do not have the knowledge of who they are. They're programmed [to think]: "I'm a victim of my genes and I have no power." I go, "Well, there's your problem." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 43:54 And the issue about it is that you guys are in the front of the evolution that says: Okay, I can treat the patient, but I've really got to treat the consciousness of the patient. Why? Because, as quantum physics says, consciousness is the source of this creativity, and as epigenetics says, consciousness is the source of this expression. You cannot leave that out. Dr. Jill 44:18 You just talked about two beliefs that I think are critical and it's a great place to kind of wrap up. The first one is: Do we love ourselves? Do we really, really, truly love and accept ourselves? I have written a book and done a movie on that message. The heart of healing is: How do we show self-compassion and love? Because that is the only way that our cells will respond in health. Dr. Jill 44:41 The second thing was so crucial too, and that is the fear and the unsafety. This is where a physician in the office can make all the difference, because if they add to that fear message, guess what? That's just adding to that patient's unhealth. So one thing we are obligated to do as physicians is create a safe environment and teach that patient how to start to feel safe in their body. With those two beliefs, maybe in the last couple of minutes here, could you maybe give us some practical advice for somebody who's like: "How do I start doing that, Bruce? How do I feel safe in my body? And how do I love myself?" Because that, I couldn't agree more with you, is really the core message here. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 45:19 I'll tell you, let's get right to the root of why people do not love themselves. The answer is: Because parents act like coaches on a sports team. I go, "What does that mean?" A player isn't doing well. What does the coach say? "Oh, do better." No! The coach says: "That's not good enough. Who do you think you are? You don't deserve to be on this team." Well, a player is older than seven. They're in consciousness. They understand that the coach is saying, "You better do better!" Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 45:47 Now let's say the parent is the coach and the kid is under seven. There's no consciousness operating. What's operating? Hypnosis, programming. So when the father says, "That's not good enough, you don't deserve this, you're not lovable, you don't belong," blah, blah, blah—acting like the coach who says, "This is going to make them do better"—if the kid is under seven, you just programmed them to self-sabotage because the subconscious is going to create 95% of their life. And if I get a program "I do not deserve," when I'm thinking 95% of the day, what the hell program is running? "I do not deserve." So I could say something so stupid in my corporate structure or something, and somebody says, "That guy doesn't deserve to be here." And then, all of a sudden, I'm kicked out of the structure. Why? Because I myself made behavior to conform to "not good enough" and to not love myself. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 46:41 This is why that one's so important—because if you can't love yourself, I'm going to be honest, you can't accept love from somebody else. I go, "Why?" Because they say they love you, but in your mind, you're going: "Well, they don't know me, man. I know I'm not lovable." And you'll push them away. And then you'll find yourself with nobody around. And guess what you'll say? "You see?! I'm not lovable!" [inaudible] You just did that. And when it comes to "Do I have any power?" the answer is: No, it has been systematically deprived of them. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 46:59 I've got a minute; I've got to say this because this is really cool. There's a power struggle in the world. It's always been this way. There are three levels of power. Number one, caveman. Who's the biggest badass with the biggest club? Whatever they say, do it. They've got the power. Evolution came along. There are people then who control the resources that you need. And all of a sudden they say, "If you want those resources, you've got to give me something for this." And you know what? The ones who had the resources paid the caveman to hit you over the head if you didn't pay for the resources. Dr. Jill 47:53 A personal hitman. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 47:55 That's the king who owns the resources with an army of cavemen. Then I say, "But the last of the power struggles came down to 'knowledge is power.'" And it was recognized that, yes, that is the supreme power of everything. Knowledge is power. The first thing the church of Rome did was acknowledge: "We are the source of infallible knowledge. We are the source of truth. We say it; it's true." Well, you say, "I don't care." The point about it was that people gave up their power to the belief. And I say it here very quickly: There's a code behind the power brokers. I call it the powermongers' credo. I say, "What is it?" Are you ready? Give them the fear for free and then sell them the antidote. Dr. Jill (pre-recording) 48:46 Hey, everybody. I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected: Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science, and Faith, is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming a life-threatening illness and the tools, tips, tricks, hope, and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein-Barr, and mold- and biotoxin-related illnesses. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by ReadUnexpected.com. There, you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine and finding resilience. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 50:59 "What do you want me to do? Put a mask on? Sure. I'll mask on. I can't visit my mom, who's dying in a nursing home?" "No, you have to give that up because you can't do that." "Really?" Dr. Jill 51:09 Yes. If you're controlled, then fear created the biology of illness. It really, really is a great analogy. Bruce, this has been so fun to dive deep. I love talking to you. I love your enthusiasm. I love your wisdom. And I love most of all that you were so far ahead of the curve because people are kind of coming along to this belief. But the truth is, you were one of the very first ones writing and talking about this. And I'm just grateful that way back in the day, in the lab, you saw this and started writing about it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 51:44 I can't be any happier than I am for myself! I have a different life! I have a different life than before that discovery. Dr. Jill 51:53 Yes. And it transforms us all, too. I have many stories, the same thing, of me continuing to transform because of this knowledge. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for spending your time with us today!](https://www.jillcarnahan.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Bruce-Lipton-Biology-of-Belief-Can-Your-Mind-Spontaneously-Transform-Your-Health_-WEB-1.jpg)
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