In Episode #89, Dr. Jill Interviews Dr. Robert Hedaya on new treatment options for resistant depression and anxiety. Learn about the limitations of current psychiatric treatment using only medications, and alternatives to treatment resistant depression.
Key Points:
- The limitations of current psychiatric treatment using only medications
- Alternatives to treatment resistant depression
- Depression as an early warning sign of subsequent Dementia: (30-40% of people with depression develop cognitive impairment
- The Utility of the EEG in neuropsychiatry diagnosis and treatment with hyperbaric oxygen
- The critical role of spirituality and faith in healing
Our Guest – Dr. Robert Hedaya
ROBERT J. HEDAYA, MD, ABPN, DLFAPA, IFMCP has been practicing at the cutting edge of psychiatry, clinical psychopharmacology and neuropsychiatry since 1979. He pioneered the use of Functional Medicine in these fields in 1996. He is a Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Georgetown University Medical Center, where he has been awarded the “Teacher of the Year” on 3 occasions while teaching courses on Affective Disorders, Cognitive Therapy and PNIE (Psycho-neuro-immuno-endocrinology). He is also the winner of the prestigious Vicennial Award at Georgetown. As an educator and faculty member at the Institute for Functional Medicine, he is the author of three books (Understanding Biological Psychiatry, The Antidepressant Survival Guide, and Depression: Advancing the Treatment Paradigm), and the founder of the Whole Psychiatry & Brain Recovery Center. He has been featured in the local and national media (20/20, 60 minutes, the New York Times, Washington Post etc.) and is a nationally and internationally recognized speaker. Most recently he has developed the groundbreaking HYLANE technology for the treatment of neuropssychiatric disorders within the brain.
His website is https://wholepsychiatry.com/
The Podcast
The Video
The Transcript
#89: Dr. Jill Interviews Dr. Robert Hedaya on Healing Your Brain From the Inside Out
Dr. Jill 00:13
Hey everybody! It is Tuesday afternoon here. Wherever you are joining us, thank you for joining us today. I'm super excited to have a longtime friend and colleague, Dr. Hedaya, here with me today. We are going to dive deep into some new therapies for functional medicine, treating brain disorders, and neuropsychology. We are going to dive deep. He's even going to share some slides. I know my audience really loves those technical tidbits
Dr. Jill 00:40
I know a lot of physicians listen and watch too, so we are going to probably be speaking at a pretty high level. Hopefully, those of you who are not in medicine will enjoy it and find it relevant. And of course, if you are a physician or a practitioner of any type in functional, integrative, precision, or personalized medicine, I'm sure you will really enjoy Dr. Hedaya's presentation.
Dr. Jill 01:02
Just a little housekeeping: If you want to find any of my information, we've got 10 years of free blogs online at JillCarnahan.com. It's all free. I still write a blog every week because I really love to educate. You can find anything there. If you want to find any products, my store is DrJillHealth.com.
Dr. Jill 01:21
If you haven't been following on YouTube or the podcast, you can find this anywhere you listen to podcasts—Stitcher, iTunes, etc. You can also find all the reruns and the other interviews I've done on my YouTube channel, which is under my name, Jill Carnahan. I think this is almost the 90th episode, so we've got a lot of free content there if you like this. There's also another episode with Dr. Hedaya. If you enjoy this content, you can go and find that one as well and watch it there.
Dr. Jill 01:50
One other update. You heard my last podcast called “After the Fire”, which came out very quickly. Many of you have heard; it's been nationally covered. The Marshall Fire on December 30th really affected my hometown of Louisville and Superior. It caused the loss of over a thousand homes and many businesses. We're fine. We were located right smack dab in the center, with literally the loss of homes and neighborhoods all around my office.
Dr. Jill 02:17
Number one, I'm super grateful to be here. Dr. Hedaya and I were talking right before this. We're scientists first and we're in medicine, but we both believe that there are a lot of things we don't always see that really matter in life. And for me, this was just one more confirmation—not that I'm more special than anyone who lost their home, but I'm grateful for the fact that my office is still standing. I feel there's a great meaning and purpose in that. One of the things I'm going to keep sharing with you is that I've been partnering with air filter companies and we're going to do our best to bring donations and resources to the community because, as you've probably heard me say before, clean air is so foundational to mental and physical health. And we take it for granted until we can't breathe.
Dr. Jill 03:02
I just noticed that in the last several weeks, one of our biggest problems is that all of the VOCs, benzene, toluene, and chemicals from the burning buildings have really affected our air quality. So, I am dedicating any resources that I can gather to my community to improve the air quality. And, like I said, if you want to partner or if you want to learn more, just stay tuned. If you do want to be updated on any initiatives in our area, we've dedicated an email, and we'll be sending out updates on that. It's cleanair@flatironfunctionalmedicine.com. You can just email there and say you would like more information, and we will be sure to include you. Or if you'd like to donate or help with the cause, that'd be great.
Dr. Jill 03:44
Now, without further ado, I'm going to introduce my friend and colleague, Dr. Hedaya, to you and then I will jump right in and let him present. Dr. Hedaya, who has many, many initials behind his name, has been practicing at the cutting edge of psychiatry, clinical psychopharmacology, and neuropsychology since 1979. He pioneered the use of functional medicine in these fields in 1996. He is a Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Georgetown University Medical Center, where he's been awarded teacher of the year on three occasions while teaching courses on effective mood disorders, cognitive therapy, and PNIE, which is psycho-neuro-immune-endocrinology, all of [which explore] how these systems interconnect in our bodies.
Dr. Jill 04:28
He's also the winner of the prestigious Vicennial Award at Georgetown. He's an educator and faculty member at the Institute of Functional Medicine. He's the author of three books: Understanding Biological Psychiatry, The Antidepressant Survival Guide, and Depression: Advancing the Treatment Paradigm. He's also been featured in the local and national media, 20/20, 60 Minutes, and many other places. If you want to find more information, I will repeat this at the end, but his website is www.WholePsychiatry.com. It is absolutely an honor and privilege to talk to you again, Dr. Hedaya! Welcome to the show.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 05:06
It's a pleasure! Call me Bob. Yes, it's great. It's been 42 years since I've been doing this; I guess I'm going on 43. I'm listening to you read all those and I'm like: “I've done a lot of stuff. I've been busy.”
Dr. Jill 05:20
I know. It's like, “Wow, that has actually happened!” Let's go back really quickly before we dive into the topic. You probably said this the last time you were on but tell us a little bit about: How'd you get into medicine? And then, how did you get into functional medicine?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 05:36
I got into medicine following my older brother. I was always interested in science and curious about astronomy, biology, and that kind of thing. But it was the thing to do in the '70s. The truth is, I think I was being guided. I didn't really know what I was doing. I was very immature. Extremely immature. I got into it. I was always curious about trying to find the truth or the bottom line and get to what works and what doesn't work.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 06:14
I think it was in '85 that I had a patient… I was doing standard psychiatry. It was kind of cutting-edge. I had trained at the National Institute of Mental Health, so I really knew what was on the cutting edge. I was doing cognitive behavioral therapy, which was cutting-edge at the time, etc. I was treating a woman 50 years old with panic disorder, which was easy to treat: Cognitive behavioral therapy, imipramine, Xanax—whatever it is, it's easy to treat—Nardil, phenelzine, or whatever. She didn't respond for a year.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 06:47
I've told this story so many times. She paged me when we had beepers those days, no phones. I was at a wedding and dancing Saturday night. My beeper goes off and I've got to go find a phone booth. I call her. I said, “Joanne, what's going on?” “I'm having a panic attack.” I'm like: “What is going on here? It's a year already. A year!”
Dr. Robert Hedaya 07:08
I went into the office early Monday morning. The only thing I had was a CBC. The CBC showed the MCV—the size of the red blood cells—was 101. The normal [range] is 80 to 100. I ignored it because I was trained [to think], “Eh, it's just a little bit out of the range.” I didn't even know what it meant and it wasn't my domain. I ended up doing some research. I said, “It could be a B12 deficiency, macrocytic anemia.” So I did a Schilling test, which was available at the time. B12 deficiency—B12 injection. Panic gone. I was like: “Oh my God! What else am I missing here? What else?”
Dr. Robert Hedaya 07:47
From there, my mother-in-law was ill and she died of myxedema. The internist didn't treat her properly. In those days, with the highly sensitive TSH, the same test we're using today, the upper limit—you wouldn't believe this, Jill—was 10.
Dr. Jill 08:02
Oh my!
Dr. Robert Hedaya 08:03
She was myxedematous and kind of demented. When I convinced the internist to treat her, he got her TSH to 9. She was a little better. I said, “Can we give her a little more?” He said: “No! She's normal.” She died of myxedema, and I feel terrible. I didn't have the confidence. I'm a psychiatrist; I'm not an internist. Well, now—Mark Hyman says accidental psychiatrist—I'm an accidental internist.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 08:34
It was things like that. As you dig deep, you learn that the brain and the body are one thing. And then [you learn] that the spirit, the mind, the psychology, the social, etc. are one thing. It was very confusing because everyone said that they had the answer to mental illness: “It's cognitive therapy,” “It's psychopharmacology,” or “It's family systems.” It took me a long time to figure out that they were all right—it just depended on the lens level of magnification that you're looking at. That's why I came up with Whole Psychiatry because I like to look from the molecular or sub-molecular to the spiritual and everything in between. That's how I approach it.
Dr. Jill 09:21
Bob, I love that story! There are a couple of things that are so relevant. Number one, truth seekers. You, I, and anyone in this field went into medicine, not just to be doctors. That's an afterthought. It's great, but the truth is, we want to know answers. I think that's the difference between someone who gets their medical degree and then stops learning and you, me, and anyone in our field who's continuing on: “I want to know why.” I'm always asking: “What else?” “What else is possible?” It also opens us up to stuff we weren't taught in medical school or that really blows our minds sometimes, like, “How could this be possible?” But it does seem to show a pattern, and then we look further. And not that we have all the answers but we're willing to ask the questions. That's the difference with someone who's continuing to learn and grow.
Dr. Jill 10:08
We talked before we got on about some miracles that we've both seen that don't have any logical explanation, but that's a kind of wonder. We have the science background but it's the open right-brain creative [side] that gets the creative solutions that aren't always thought of. You're in this field—we're going to talk today about some of these creative solutions—you really need the left and right brain. You need that ability to think outside the box because that's where we get these new solutions and these things that sometimes energetically don't make sense but start to fall into place.
Dr. Jill 10:36
The other thing you alluded to is “accidental internist” or whatever field we weren't trained in. In our system of conventional medicine, we're trained in silos. We have the rheumatologist, the gastroenterologist, the neurologist, the psychiatrist—and then me as family medicine, which is the least respected of all of them. What happens is that we all have our own silos and we don't go outside there. And the truth is, the body is one. Whether it's your joints, your brain, or your mental health, it's all connected. You and I have learned that we have to know a little bit about all these areas and then know the people that we can connect with. As a psychiatrist, I would send someone to you if I need some deeper health on mental disorders, and we can collaborate. But it's not silo medicine, is it?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 11:19
No. It's systems biology. Everything's interacting with everything.
Dr. Jill 11:25
Yes. And like you said, you got into the whole body. When I remember hearing functional medicine, it was like, ‘Aha!' When we first hear that, it's usually what our heart, soul, and mind have been seeking, but we didn't have a title for it. I think both of us got in right at the groundswell. I know that for me, it's been 20 years. For you, maybe even a little longer. You were probably in some of those original groups with Jeff Bland. But when we find that—this systems biology that seeks to find the root cause–it really resonates with why we went into medicine, doesn't it?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 12:04
Yes.
Dr. Jill 12:06
Let's introduce what you're talking about now with this new HYLANE technology. I'm going to confess: I don't know a lot; I'm here to learn, just like everybody else listening. Tell us, what is this? How did you get into it? And let's go from there.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 12:17
The first thing is that when I got into functional medicine, I was blown away. I wrote my second book. It was a bestseller. I was bombarded because we had four pages in the Washington Post, and we had thousands and thousands of calls for months because it was a way of treating depression without medication, or using less medication and avoiding side effects. I couldn't treat all these people. So I looked for people who would do a very, very thorough and comprehensive functional medicine program—treatment-resistant depression. As you may know from the start of the study, only 25% of people with treatment-resistant depression with conventional treatments of anti-depressants and psychotherapy will respond within one year—only 25%. That's worse than a placebo.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 13:17
I started treating everyone. I'm trained as a psychopharmacologist so I was using medications like crazy up until the mid-'90s. Then I took up functional medicine and then I wrote the book. I said: “Okay, these people are ready for it. So let me do it.” Very thorough. I like to dive into all the systems. That's the way I do it. I dive in all at once. It's a lot of work, but it really works. And after about three years, I was like: “I'm not even prescribing medications anymore. And I think everybody's getting better.”
Dr. Robert Hedaya 13:46
Then I thought, “Maybe I'm lying to myself.” I hired a statistician who took all my cases of treatment-resistant depression for that period of time, let's say two years. It was 23 people. The mean Beck depression inventory score was roughly 34 when we started and by 10 months, they were all normal—100%. Not only that but diabetes was gone. In one woman with MS, her MS lesions were gone. Osteoporosis gone. Quality of life and energy [improved]. I was like, “This is mind-boggling!” That's what I was doing from, like, 2002 until 2017.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 14:38
I actually retired in 2014. I didn't last very long. [laughter] I went back into practice. Then I took a retreat somewhere. I was just lying on a hammock for hours, reading, and thinking. I don't know how I got into it, but I started thinking about lasers. It was like 2017 or 2018 or something. I was thinking, “How do you know where to apply the laser?” Then I thought about QEEGs. I had an epiphany. I was like: “Oh. I think I need to learn QEEGs. I need to learn about lasers,” etc. So I started to dive into that.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 15:25
HYLANE is hyperbaric oxygen, laser, and neural exercises—brain exercises. That's HYLANE. I developed this technique—it's patent-pending—to guide the laser onto the site based on my QEEG analysis. I've been studying the QEEG now for about four years or so. I can't believe I practiced without it. What I learned—this is how I got into this—in the first case that I did this with… I'll share my screen here and show you. I'm excited about this. I just got an article accepted for publication today. It's this article here. “Reversal of Acquired Prosopagnosia Using Quantitative EEG-Guided Laser Therapy”. This just came out.
Dr. Jill 16:24
And for our lay audience, go ahead and define prosopagnosia.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 16:29
Agnosia is when you can't recognize something. Prosop is the face, so you don't recognize faces. This was a woman who was in her 50s or so and she had acquired it, meaning she wasn't born with it. She had something that happened and she acquired it. There's no treatment for this. She also had mild cognitive impairment. She had a family history of dementia that was very strong. She also had temporal lobe seizures. She had [inaudible].
Dr. Robert Hedaya 17:08
I'll skip through this but I'll show you some images. I'll show you this on a different screen here. This should be a little better here. This is a QEEG. This is one way of looking at a QEEG. There are many aspects to it. Anything that's gray is normal. Anything that's yellow or red is overactive. Blue is underactive. Here the eyes are in the front. Do you see my cursor? You can see my cursor here. Here's the right ear and the left ear. We see that the red crosshairs are pointing at the area of maximal instability, or abnormality, of the brain.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 18:00
This is the hippocampus—the memory center for formulating memory. Her hippocampus was 2.7 standard deviations from the norm, meaning it's malfunctioning in a very significant way. And it's overactive. This is the funny thing: The brain spends most of its energy keeping the foot on the pedal, inhibiting neuronal function. That's what takes the energy. She doesn't have the energy or processes to keep this stable for a variety of reasons.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 18:41
Here's her hippocampus before the treatment. You can see there are abnormalities in different areas of the brain. And this yellow stuff here is information flow. We can expand on this. That information from the Brodmann area, this particular area here, is excessive information flow. That's like me yelling in your ear really loudly. You would know I'm saying something but you still couldn't use it. The blue is poor information flow. It's like me whispering and you know I'm maybe saying something but you still can't get information. This first image here is after functional medicine. That's what blew me away.
Dr. Jill 19:36
So the importance of that, Bob, is that you were doing [work on] nutrition, the diet, the infections, and the toxins—all the stuff that I do in clinical practice—and you still had this massive abnormality.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 19:45
Yes. And that's what blew me away, because clinically, she was doing better, not perfect. She was still having some memory problems. She was still having some absences. She still had prosopagnosia—she couldn't recognize faces. There was still some stuff, but she was working out in the gym. She was doing better in a lot of ways. Then I did her QEEG. This is my first QEEG. And I was like: “Whoa! I can't believe this. I've been treating people now with functional medicine for 20 years, and there are no brain problems.” I couldn't believe it.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 20:19
Then we did laser treatments to specific areas on the left side of her brain, the areas that I mapped out based on this. Here, she's basically normal. Her hippocampus is now normal. Everything's normal here. There's a little information flow problem here but it's very minor for sure.
Dr. Jill 20:41
Much less than before. Unbelievable.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 20:46
Yes. There are a few points here, because remember, we're applying light. There's debate about LEDs, whether they penetrate the skull or not, etc. But we do have evidence with cadavers that the laser light is more coherent and that it penetrates. But I don't know that we know that it penetrates to the hippocampus. We don't know that. I think that basically, by applying the light, the brain has its energy and then it can do the processes it needs to do. And then it translates down to deeper structures.
Dr. Jill 21:24
Bob, a couple of questions come to mind. I'm just wondering: Number one, you showed this woman who had a really good functional model and care and it was improving. Yet you show us the images of the EEG and they're dramatically off. They're abnormal. I've even felt this in my own life with mold exposures: I can function on a high level, even if I'm quite affected neurologically by the mold. Maybe no one would notice. I can still solve problems. I'm guessing that you see that people can function pretty well when they have pretty significant impairments due to toxin, infection, or inflammation. Is that true?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 22:04
It's 100% true. We know in dementia that the higher functioning you are… Let's say you're a multilingual professor or something like that. You could be developing Alzheimer's, for example. If we looked in your brain, you'd go, “Oh, this is terrible,” but in the world, you will be functioning fine. And when they discover you have Alzheimer's, your brain will look a lot worse than other people's because you've been able to function so much longer because of your capacity. So I think that's definitely true.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 22:37
The other point on this one is that we showed continued improvement [after] one month without treatment. In other words, the brain continued to assimilate the treatment. After three months, however, there was deterioration because she has the ApoE4. There are other processes, so she needs maintenance on this. It's not that much maintenance, but she needs maintenance. This is the QEEG objective test. This is objective testing—the Cambridge Facial Recognition Test. She scored really well.
Dr. Jill 23:17
Wow, unbelievable.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 23:19
[inaudible] the case. That's the first case. The latest case, I'll tell you, is a woman who's about 72. She has dementia and all the stuff we see in dementia—the diabetes and toxins and the mold, the whole thing. The most important thing that I'm going to tell you is that she had some aphasia. She couldn't really speak a full sentence. Then we did the QEEG, etc., and then lasered her. She started speaking full sentences after the first treatment—not normal [sentences] but full sentences—like two or three full sentences in a row. Her husband and I were both crying. That's not going to happen for everybody. Obviously, the sooner you get to something, the better it is. We know that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 24:23
This is a case here. This is a guy who had schizophrenia. He would see people's faces as hostile to him. He was paranoid. And I found this tract here. This is the vertical occipital fasciculus and the superior longitudinal fasciculus, I believe. We lasered him here and right here. It cleared up. His distortion went away. And interestingly, his reading ability improved. And this tract here has a big effect on reading ability. I didn't know that, but that's what happened.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 25:19
Anyway, I could go through cases. I don't think you want to hear more cases. If you want, I can. But you see, it's a clear thing. The main idea is to use the functional medicine and then layer onto it the HYLANE. Sometimes you use hyperbaric. Sometimes it's the neurofeedback. Sometimes it's laser. It's different things.
Dr. Jill 25:40
It's like you have more tools in your toolbox. First of all, you're sitting on this retreat—back to our first start there—we are scientists (left brain), and we were trained that way, but I feel like the real brilliant inspirations come from that right brain place when we're resting and we're open. And you and I have a belief in a greater power. Often, I find that those miracles come from this place that we can't always explain. And when you told your story, that was my thought: “You got a divine inspiration, Bob.” I just love that.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 26:14
I really did, because it felt that way. I was moved. I felt like I was in a different place.
Dr. Jill 26:24
Yes. And it's always that place where we really surrender. We were talking about that before too. The world, the chaos, and the pandemic keep going. But part of the lesson that we're all learning in this, and it's probably the same way for you listening, is this surrender. It's unexpected. It's not the way we would have planned it. We let go of control. But the outcomes are often way more miraculous, unexpected, and beautiful than if we were to plan for them, control them, and all that. So I love that story. I have lots of questions.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 26:55
Let me just say one thing. I just want to underline what you said for people. I really believe, and I know you'll agree, that healing occurs physically and spiritually. It's a bimodal thing. It's an interactive thing. We are connected to the metaphysical realm, whether people want to believe it or not. There are facts that show this to be the case. We just have a narrow view. We're in interaction like a bilipid membrane. There are interactions between this domain, the quantum domain, and the metaphysical domain. There are interactions. And when you ask your higher power for health, you get help and protection. And so you need to always be looking at healing. Where's the healing? Where's the gratitude? Where's the good? There's always good stuff coming. Even out of corona, there's good stuff coming. And you're going to get more good out of the bad, usually. You just have to be in that framework where you open your mind out of the physical and heal on both levels.
Dr. Jill 28:02
I love that synopsis because that's what I believe too and I've seen it in action. I love thinking about [the differences between] the left brain and the right brain, analytical versus creative. I was kind of born an analytical engineering scientist. And God has really opened my eyes to the intuitive and this other realm. When I'm trying to explain it to patients or other people, it's almost like our left brain is an analytical computer that's analog. It can take hundreds of pieces of data, process it, and come up with a solution. But when we are open to the creative, intuitive, and more spiritual realm, we can subconsciously process—in seconds or milliseconds—millions of pieces of data. And we can come to a conclusion that—even according to good science—it's more right on than our analytical mind. So it's using both of those.
Dr. Jill 28:50
I always say that I'm more open to that realm for answers now than ever. And then I prove it with science. I use both, just like you do. You took a statistician and took your data and said: What's the science behind what I'm doing? And you proved it. But some of the most beautiful things that we see happen in that realm of being open to intuition. And I love that because I'm learning to trust it more and more than I used to.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 29:14
Jill Bolte Taylor wrote My Stroke of Insight. I don't know if you've read that. It's a phenomenal short book where a lot of her left brain was wiped out, so she has a right brain experience. You won't be able to put it down.
Dr. Jill 29:27
Oh, I'm going to go get it right away. Stroke of Insight, you said?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 29:32
My Stroke of Insight.
Dr. Jill 29:34
Oh, great. As I'm listening, a couple of things. First of all, what I wanted to emphasize for those of you listening is that functional medicine is still the basic. It's like the foundation—diet and nutrition. You're still taking that approach, looking at infections, the gut, toxins, and all those things. But what you found and what I found too, is that there's a limit. There's a wall you might hit, and there's a certain place you can't go beyond. And that's where you're finding these extraordinary therapies of hyperbaric and lasers.
Dr. Jill 30:05
Let's talk really briefly. Say one example there. What would a typical treatment be like? How many sessions of hyperbaric would that take?—like maybe case one or case two. And then what would the laser sessions look like too? What amount of time or effort would this take?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 30:19
The standard hyperbaric [treatment], if it's indicated, would be a minimum of 40 sessions. I use soft chambers. I think that in [terms of] brain injury, that's pretty good. It's accessible to people. They'll do an hour. I have them use an oxygen concentrator. I don't have them wear a mask and breathe 100% oxygen. I am really uncomfortable with it because of the counter-regulatory mechanisms and the lipid peroxidation. But having oxygen coming in, so you're getting more oxygen at pressure, you do that daily, if you can—five days a week, 40 sessions. Then you recheck and see how things are going. And it depends on the condition. Some people use it as a health maintenance measure, and some people are done at 40 sessions.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 31:10
And then, with laser, it varies. I treat a woman with treatment-resistant depression. She's young—30 years old. We did the functional medicine and worked on all this stuff and then we did the laser. I feel the brain is like a plant: Get the soil in order, make sure there's water, then give the light. Sometimes you can't—you have to give the light right away. But in her case, it was 10 treatments—fine.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 31:44
I got a woman who's 80 years old with treatment-resistant depression. She wants to get off her Effexor. We're treating her and she's coming off her Effexor. She's doing better than she's done in years and years. No depression this winter for the first time with the laser. But then you have someone like the first case with prosopagnosia, where she's going to need maintenance.
Dr. Jill 32:07
This is amazing. One thing I have a question on is hyperbaric. Are there any contraindications or any patients that you would not give hyperbaric to?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 32:16
Yes. With hyperbaric oxygen, first of all, if you've had pneumothorax in the last year or maybe two years, you're not going to do it. There's controversy about seizures. Some people say it can promote seizures. Some people say no. I haven't seen it promote seizures. We have a lot of people who have pre-seizure activity and there doesn't seem to be any problem. If you have a sinus infection, you can't clear your ears—that kind of thing. I think those are the high-level contraindications, I would say.
Dr. Jill 32:52
That makes sense. And with the laser, you were talking about the controversy, but it's clearly getting results. It's interesting because I have heard the controversy. I read it. And back five or six years ago, when I really had the mold issue, I was using a device that goes on the head and does the red light. It's very controversial because it can even go through the skull. It has one prong that goes up the nose. You know which one I'm talking about. For me, it was profound. I think it was 40 Hz, so more alpha. In fact, if I have a day where I need to be focused, that really works for me. But it's so funny because it's very generic, the placement. Who knows where it's going? What are your thoughts on that? It's not even close to what you're doing with the precision. But to me, that was an aha, personally, to know this light really does work.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 33:45
I've been in debate about this with some people and looking at the literature. Here's where I'm at. Does it penetrate? I don't have any evidence. Could there be remote effects? There could be remote effects. I'm not doubting that it worked for you, by the way. I think it worked for you. But the history of psychiatry over 250 years is that there's always a paradigm. Everybody's excited. The [inaudible] says, “Isn't it great?” They used to take psychiatric patients and put them in these centrifuges to spin them. And they were like: “Wow, this is really working! The psychosis and the neurosis are going away. Why don't I build one for 10 people?”
Dr. Robert Hedaya 34:39
All the mental health institutions had these carousels, centrifuges, for 10 people. People were making money. And then the research was not so good. That's 50 years right there. It takes 50 or 60 years a cycle and then: “Oh, it doesn't work.” “Oh, but there's insulin coma! Insulin coma really… ” There's always the fad. And the people who are marketing these things and doing the studies—my concern is that I want to see studies from objective, non-interested parties.
Dr. Jill 35:13
Not from the company that makes the device.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 35:16
Yes. I don't have any questions about the light being effective. And I'm going to say your device is effective, but it's not as targeted as my device. Mine is much more specific for specific conditions, etc. And I hope it's true that it works.
Dr. Jill 35:38
I'm saying that because I agree with you. What you're doing is on such a different level. And interestingly, for me, the pulsed electromagnetic frequency, the PEMF, which does have decent data, I found just as good a benefit with that. It's something energetically. Like you said, it could be non-specific. It could just be the light energy of some frequency that is not at all specific. I believe that. And the more it's been since that time of those devices coming out, the more I doubt: “Is that really the way to go?” What I love is that you're doing this very targeted and specific [treatment]. And are there other people interested in what you're doing and learning it? Can we multiply what you're doing, teach, and share it?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 36:22
I'm open to teaching it to clinicians. It took me a lot of time to learn and figure this thing out. And I'm still learning, obviously. But yes, I'm happy to teach it. I had to put the whole treatment on hold initially—the laser treatment, not the hyperbaric or neurofeedback. We have figured out how to do neurofeedback in people's homes. That was the advantage of COVID—now we can do it anywhere in the country.
Dr. Jill 36:52
That's amazing. That's even better. So you can do it remotely. Getting your book, going to the website—how can people get more information about what you're doing and not overwhelm you?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 37:07
I haven't published except for this article. I just found out today that if I want it to be open access, it's $3,200.
Dr. Jill 37:15
Maybe someone can donate to the cause, Bob. I'm going to put that out there because I love your work.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 37:19
I was like: “Really, nobody's going to read this. This is terrible.” There are people with prosopagnosia and now nobody's going to know about it. So that was news to me.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 37:30
I guess if you need treatment or have some serious interest, contacting me through the website is the best way. I have started writing a book. I want to write about this and get it out there. It's got to get out there. I'm open to training physicians because this is a class for a medical device and you really need to know what you're doing. Say goodbye to psychiatry. I don't mean psychology, but medicine and therapy. I'm not anti-therapy. I think there are specific places for therapy and even medications. I'm not anti-meds. There are specific places for medicines, for sure. But the data and the science are so [far] beyond what people are practicing that this is 50 to 70 years ahead.
Dr. Jill 38:24
Yes, there's something called the standard of care that we all know about in medicine. If you're listening and you don't know, it's like: What's the standard of the average doctor of what they do in their office? We are all set up against that standard of care. The problem is that it's 30 years old or maybe 50 years old. It's not at the bleeding cutting-edge of what advancements and good science are showing us as possible. Bob and I are pushing that edge. We're always trying things. My theory is that as long as there's very little risk and I understand what I'm doing and I give full informed consent, I'm willing to push that with patients, of course, with their permission, with stuff that has decent, early preliminary data that is safe and effective. And I believe this kind of stuff with light and with hyperbaric and with some of the new things that we have, and more in an energetic realm too, is where medicine is headed because it's so much more powerful than the old pharmaceuticals, like one receptor type of medicine.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 39:23
And speaking of safety with the laser, we're very careful. Obviously, you don't want to heat anything. We always do an MRI to make sure there are no lesions in the brain, etc., before we do anything like this. We want to know what we're doing and where we're doing it. Safety is number one. So that's what we're doing.
Dr. Jill 39:47
One real quick question, and this is me just wondering: I've done some NeuroQuants, but I haven't found them super helpful. And for anyone who doesn't know what they are, this is just volume metrics of the brain portion. Say with the hippocampus, it'll tell us the volume—an average volume compared to average populations. What you can see is the expansion, atrophy, or shrinkage of different regions, and maybe [you can] make assumptions. I don't know how much clinical application we have for that. But I'm curious, do you think the EEG findings will sometimes correlate with that?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 40:20
They correlate. The EEG correlates with the MRI. It correlates symptomatically. It correlates with the DTI, which is in the literature. And it correlates with the NeuroQuant. I use the NeuroQuant here and there. I like it. I just ordered one today on someone. I don't think she has Parkinson's, but she looks like she has Parkinson's. I think it's a traumatic head injury. For example, about two and a half years ago, I did a NeuroQuant on a woman who had motor problems and some cognitive problems. And she had shrinkage of various areas, the putamen, etc. It was really subnormal. Then, when we repeated it two years later, she was normal. That's powerful. She couldn't even believe it. She said, “I don't believe it.” I said, “Well, you have to believe it.” [laughter]
Dr. Jill 41:05
Yes, “We have this data.” That's how we can find out: What does that really mean?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 41:12
The brain grows back.
Dr. Jill 41:15
Yes. If that's the one message we leave people with, the neuroplasticity, which is… You know this better than anyone. Do you want to describe to the general person listening, what neuroplasticity is? And what does that mean for you if you're ill, or for us as physicians?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 41:28
We are neuroplastic. We learn and we change. That is always reflected in changes in the brain nuclei, the groups of cells or nerve tracts, the highways of the brain, and the information highways of the brain. If you have PTSD, certain ones get bigger and others get smaller, and the information flow is routed down the wrong highway. The brain is morphing slowly over time, all the time. So it has that ability. Cindy Baker said: Take the bad stuff out, put in the good stuff, and then it heals.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 42:04
One thing to talk about is chronic Lyme. Chronic Lyme is much more ubiquitous than people think. Something like that is going to impair your plasticity. The way we've been testing—this is interesting—is doing a challenge test now. What we do is put people on antibiotics—or herbals, but generally antibiotics—for three or four weeks, and then do a very, very thorough panel with IGeneX. Then we're more likely to see a positive and when we don't see a positive [we say], “Okay, you don't have it.” But to overlook that could be a big problem. But the plasticity is amazing. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work.
Dr. Jill 42:50
It is. And you describe it—all your protocols and everything—so easily, but what Dr. Bob does here is phenomenal and at a level that's probably in the top 0.1% of our colleagues in the whole United States. It is just a pleasure to hear about this. I can't wait to read your book and to hear more as it comes out. People can find you at WholePsychiatry.com. Is that correct?
Dr. Robert Hedaya 43:12
Yes. And if anyone knows a good author who can help me write it, let me know.
Dr. Jill 43:17
Ooh, I'll be in touch after. Thanks again for your information today, Bob. It's a pleasure, as always, to talk to you.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 43:23
Great. Thank you so much for all your great teaching, great work, and educating the public. You're doing such a great service. And I see you on your retreats that you're going on and I'm like, “Oh, I want to go.”
Dr. Jill 43:36
[laughter] Thank you. Thank you. We'll keep talking. We'll have you on again and talk some more. Thanks again, Bob.
Dr. Robert Hedaya 43:41
Thank you.
![204: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Can our Minds Spontaneously Transform our Health? Bruce Lipton Dr. Jill 00:00 Hey guys, I am so excited to announce that the movie that you've been waiting for, the documentary Doctor/Patient, is now available for rent or purchase at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Check out the trailer here. 00:13 Dr. Jill: When I really knew something was wrong, was when I started having trouble walking up the stairs. I was supposed to be grateful and happy and healing and well and thriving, but I did not feel that way. I was so sick. Like always, I wanted to find an answer, and I had to figure it out. And I had to figure it out to save my own life. So I dove in. 00:38 James Maskell: Jill is the leading voice in biotoxin illness and chronic conditions that are driven by toxicity. 00:43 Bree Argetsinger: Oh my gosh, you're dealing with mold? You have to work with Dr. Jill Carnahan. 00:47 Patient 1: Dr. Jill is the first person that actually began to shed some light on the problem. 00:53 Dr. Jill: What I do is listen to the patient, and we together talk about what else is possible. 00:59 Patient 2: I don't know why I'm crying. 01:02 Patient 3: She saved my life. 01:06 Dr. Jill: The deepest lessons and most profound insights come in the suffering, come in the dark moments. Self-compassion is the healing transition that shifts something inside of us. It's actually the thing that we need most in order to heal. 01:26 Narrator: Doctor/Patient—available now at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Dr. Jill 01:36 Hey, welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Jill. In each episode, we dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research, empowering you with knowledge and wisdom to overcome illness in your journey to optimal health. Dr. Jill 02:02 Hey guys, if you don't already know, if you've been around me at all, you know my movie, Doctor/Patient is now out. You can view it, share it, gift it, or rent it at DoctorPatientMovie.com. Be sure to check it out and then I would love to hear your feedback after you've had a chance to watch it. Dr. Jill 02:19 Today, I am deeply honored to have guest Bruce Lipton here with me. He's a PhD, a cell biologist, a lecturer, and an internationally recognized leader in bridging science and spirit. We were just talking before we came on about how he has been a leader [for] decades before a lot of us in functional/integrative medicine came along. And I am so excited! If you're a doctor listening—and I know I have a lot of audience there—you are in for a treat. If you're a patient, you're also in for a treat. Stay tuned. Dr. Jill 02:47 Bruce was on the faculty of the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and later performed groundbreaking stem cell research at Stanford University. He's a best-selling author of The Biology of Belief—if you haven't read that book, it's a classic now—The Honeymoon Effect, and the co-author with Steve Bhaerman of Spontaneous Evolution. Bruce received his prestigious 2009 Goi Peace Award from Japan in honor of his scientific contribution to world harmony. Bruce, it is a true honor and delight to have you here! Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 03:17 Jill, I am a happy person to be here because this audience that I get a chance to talk to, to me, is a very important audience. These are the cultural creatives that are paving the way for the future that we need to get into very soon because we're facing an evolutionary upheaval at this very moment. Whether you watch the news, surf the web, or even look out your window, the whole planet has experienced chaos at every level of it. People are focusing on the little chaos, like focusing on the trees, without pulling back to see the biggest thing that's happening and nobody's saying the words. NASA—Let me just say NASA's words. NASA has recognized that within the next 20 years, civilization is facing—and this is my emphasis here—an irreversible collapse. The reason is so mathematically simple. Let me give the math. Dr. Jill 04:16 Sure. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 04:17 Science has recognized that to continue living just the way we're living—just say, let's every day live the way we're living today on this planet—it takes 1.6 planet Earths to provide the resources for today's civilization. The simple math is this: There's one Earth subtracted from 1.6, and we're recognizing: "Where the hell are we getting the extra points?" Dr. Jill 04:39 We're in a deficit. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 04:40 And that deficit is leading to the destruction of the web of life. We have to also recognize this: Even though the Bible is giving us some fanciful story that nature was created and then humans were added on top of nature—no, we evolved from nature. We are nature. If nature goes down, humans go down, because we are part of this web of life. Our separation in our consciousness [that causes us to believe] that we can dominate nature, I say, "How's that working?" I say, "We're facing an extinction." That's a biological reality at this moment. It's called a mass extinction. It happened five times in the history of this planet: Life was thriving, [then] mass extinction. It knocked it all out and then it started again. We are there because of our behavior. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 05:33 And I say, "Our behavior is based on our consciousness." I go: "Okay, wait a second. Is that New Age?" I go: "No, let's stop. No New Age here at this moment." [In] 1927—day one, quantum physics—Max Planck, the founding father of quantum physics, states: "The mind is the creator of our life experiences." Quantum physics—the most valid of all the sciences today in the sense of its predictions and accuracy. Quantum physics. And it's still the belief in quantum physics: Consciousness is controlling this. And I go: "So if consciousness is controlling this, then why are we in such a mess?" The answer is: We have been programmed, and the programming has disempowered us all. It has disempowered us as patients. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 06:28 I go: "I'll give you a program that disempowers you right now." I say, "What is it?" "It's called genetic determinism." That was what I was teaching in medical school: Genes control the character of life. I go: "Did we pick the genes as far as we know? No. But if we don't like the characters we have, can we change the genes? No, can't do that." And then let's just add a little tidbit: Genes turn on and off by themselves. And I say: "You put those together and what have you done? You have told the patients that their lives are not in their control, they're controlled by their heredity, and that they're victims of heredity. Which is victims of what? Genetics. And what does a person know about genetics? Nothing. Who does know something? The doctor. Aha! The program is: When it comes to health, people do not trust themselves." They say: "I need an expert opinion. I'm not knowledgeable." They accept the truth from somebody else. Dr. Jill 07:28 I so love the direction that you're going here because, as a physician, one of the most important things I can do is empower the patient and make sure that they don't think that I am the end-all-be-all. [I want them to know] that we are collaborating and that I listen to them, and I say: "How do you feel about this treatment plan? Where do you want to go?" Granted, if I have wisdom, I can give them that information, but they still get to make that decision. But so many patients are outsourcing that wisdom to someone. Or, at least paternalistically and historically, that has been the way. And what we need to do is take control of our own health. Dr. Jill 08:00 How many patients have gone through a loved one with breast cancer—I'm a breast cancer survivor, so I can speak on this—and they're told, "You have the BRCA gene and you need to have a bilateral mastectomy"? I'm going to be strong about this because I disagree. That's an action out of fear. To each his own, so if you've been out there and have done something based on your genetics, there's no judgment here. But what we're saying is that you actually have control over the expression of those genes. So why don't you go into epigenetics for those who don't know what that means and tell us a little primer on epigenetics and why we have more control than we think? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 08:34 Okay. The most important thing—and this is all scientific, so this is not any new age BS here, folks, this is science—I say: "What is it?" The belief that genes turn on and off is a completely false statement because a gene is a blueprint to make a protein. The proteins are the building blocks. Proteins wear out; you have to replace them. So you have to have a blueprint. It's called a gene. I go, "It's a blueprint!" I go, "Why is that relevant?" I say: "Go to an architect's office. She's working on a blueprint. You ask her, 'Hey, is your blueprint on or off?' She would look at you like, 'What are you talking about? There's no on and off to a blueprint.'" I go: "Aha! Aha! A gene is a blueprint. What you want to find out is: Who's the architect who reads the blueprint? The blueprint does not read itself. There's an architect." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 09:24 I saw this in my research in 1967. None of you were probably old enough to know what I'm talking about—1967! But I was cloning stem cells. Let's give the real name of a stem cell: An embryonic cell. It's an embryo's cell. It replaces things that are broken and gets a new one. I go: "So what? I clone the stem cell." I say, "What's that?" I say: "You put one stem cell in the culture dish. And then what? It divides every 10 or 12 hours." So first there's one, then there's 2, then there's 4, 8, and 16. A week later, [there are] 30,000 cells in the petri dish. What's the most important fact? They all came from one parent. I have 30,000 genetically identical cells. I split them into three petri dishes—one, two, three. Each dish has 10,000, 10,000, 10,000, all genetically the same. We grow cells in a culture medium. Ah, this is going to be the tricky part, for when you get this, the world changes. I'm going to come back to it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 10:27 I say: "A culture medium is what the cells grow in in the lab. And I make it up by putting the chemistry or culture medium. Since I'm creating it, I can change some of the constituents. So I make three different versions of culture medium, A, B, and C." So I say, "So what?" Each one represents a different environment because the cells live in a culture medium. So I say: "Okay, dish one, environment A—the cells form muscle. Dish two, environment B—the cells form bone. Dish three, environment C—the cells form fat cells." I'm doing this experiment. I'm teaching genetic determinism, and I'm watching the cells and going— Dr. Jill 11:10 Wait a second. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 11:11 —"Wait a second, who controlled the activity?" They were all genetically the same. What was different? The environment. The chemistry of the environment selected the genes. The genes did not select themselves. Then, all of a sudden, I said, "Why is this important?" It's a revolution! I'll tell you why. Genetic determinism: Victim. The new science, epigenetics, which I'll explain: Master. Why? Because you control the environment. It's the environment that controls the cells. It's called epigenetics. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 11:48 [There's a] simple reason why the name [is what it is]. What do we call skin? Epidermis. Why? What's under the skin? A layer called dermis. What's the skin above the dermis? Epidermis. Epi: Above. Epigenetics: Control above the genes. I go, "Whoa, the control is not in the genes." I said: "No, it's to control the environment that the genes live in." I go, "Well, wait, I control the environment." Aha! If you control the environment, then you control the genetics. And that's all of a sudden where the new science comes in. The genetic determinism: Victim. Epigenetics: Master. You control your genes. So basically, what I saw back in 1967 was, "The genes didn't make this decision." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 12:48 Now let's just jump ahead a second here because that's a basic science. And then I'm going to give you this, which you're totally aware of: You are a skin-covered petri dish. You have 50 trillion cells under your skin and you have the original culture medium. What is a culture medium? I didn't say it before, but I'll tell you where it is: A laboratory version of blood. When I grow human cells, I concoct a culture medium based on the constituents of human blood or mouse blood, depending on which cells I'm growing. What's the point? You are a skin-covered culture dish with what? The original culture medium. You have the blood. The blood carries the chemistry, which activates the genes. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 13:34 So the first point: Scientifically, it doesn't make a difference if the cell is in a plastic dish or a skin dish? I said, "No, it's the environment." And I say the environment in your body is the blood for the cells. Then come two questions that blow the game into a new evolution. Question number one: What controls the chemistry of the blood? The answer is the brain. It's the chemist. The big one—here it is, hold on: What chemistry should the brain put into the blood? You know what it is? Whatever picture you hold in your mind, the brain translates the picture into complimentary chemistry that matches the picture. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 14:25 I say, "So why is this important?" The picture in your head becomes material in your body. You manifest what you're thinking. I go: "Wait a minute. Would I manifest this life? Would I manifest my cancer?" I go, "Yes." I go, "You say that so affirmatively." I go: "Quantum physics—the most valid science principle number one [is that] the mind is the creator of our experience." I go: "Well, epigenetics is the biological component of that physics mechanism." Epigenetics is how the mind adjusts the genetics of the body. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 15:05 And I go, "We're facing a healthcare crisis on this planet." I go, "Yes, we are facing a healthcare crisis." And I go, "What's responsible?" We put all the money into science. You know what we're looking for? We're looking for the gene—the gene that controls that problem. Guess what? Less than 1% of all diseases on this planet have any connection with genes. Wait, then that means only less than 1% of what we diagnose as disease is connected with genes. I go, "Yes, that's a fact." Then what is really contributing to the worldwide crisis in healthcare? The answer is: Stress is 90% the cause of disease, minimum. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 15:54 I go: "Okay, come on! How could that do that?" Let's give the biology because it's not New Age again. You're ready? When you're in stress, you're in threat. When you're in threat, you engage a protection response. I say, "What is a protection response?" The protection response is: When you perceive stress, you will release stress hormones, adrenal hormones. I go, "Yes, so what?" Well, what do you think the adrenal hormones do? They prepare the body for fight or flight. I go, "So what?" I say: "First of all, there are three stages to take a body from health, happiness, joy—I'm in the garden, I love my life—to 'Ah! A sabertooth tiger's chasing me!'" I say, "So I have to switch from growth, boom, into protection." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 16:41 How does that happen? Three steps. Number one, stress hormones cause the blood vessels in the gut to constrict. Why? Because most of the blood is in the gut. I say, "Who cares?" I say: "Ah, but the blood is a source of energy. So if you need energy, you need blood." So I say, "So what's the point?" I say: "Most of the blood is in the gut, taking care of the body, cleaning, fixing, repairing, nourishing, and doing all those things. But the moment stress hormones come in, the blood vessels squeeze shut. People feel it in the body." "It's queasy. I feel very queasy when I'm in fear like this." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 17:16 I say: "But some people say butterflies in the stomach. Why?" The fluttering of the blood vessels shutting down—you can feel it. And it's a fluttering. And what's happening? The blood is being pushed to the arms and legs, and that's where I need to run away from that damn tiger. So number one, redistribute the blood. Where do I take it from? [From] growth and maintenance to protection. So I'm not funding growth and maintenance when I'm running from the tiger. I go, "No, you're not." Number two, the immune system is to protect me on the inside. If I'm being chased by a saber-toothed tiger, then what's the value of the immune system? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 17:55 I'll give you a scenario. Come on, doctors, listen to this. The patient's got a bacterial infection. They're going to have a real bad case of diarrhea coming up here and they're being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. How would you split the energy of the body? How much to support the immune system and how much of that energy to run away from the saber-toothed tiger? I'll give you a second. Okay, thank you. The answer is, of course, who cares about the immune system? If the tiger chased you, the bacteria are not your problem anymore, that's for sure. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 18:26 Listen, stress hormones shut down the immune system to conserve energy. And you know damn well that when people are sick, sometimes they don't even have the energy to get out of bed because the immune system uses a hell of a lot of energy. If you're being chased by a tiger: I can't support the immune system because if the tiger gets me, who cares about what's happening in the interior?—it's not mine anymore. It's so important—in fact, therapeutic—that when they transplant an organ from person A into person B and they don't want immunological rejection, they give the recipient stress hormones before the operation. That restricts the function of the immune system so it doesn't immediately reject the foreign graft. Ah, so stress hormones are used therapeutically to shut off the immune system. So I say, "Yes, what do you think stress does automatically?" That's number two. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 19:21 Number three, conscious processing is slow compared to reflex behavior. Conscious [processing] is like, "Oh, let me think." Reflex is boom! Boom! Like that. The point is, if you're running from a saber-toothed tiger, conscious processing is going to delay your nervous system because you'll be thinking. When that tiger is coming, guess what? Remember the role of the stress hormone—to squeeze the blood vessels here? They squeeze the blood vessels in the forebrain. I say, "Why?" Because it stops the blood flow from going to the conscious mind. Where's it going? The hindbrain—reflex behavior. Result: We become less intelligent in the fear process. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 20:11 So I say: "Let's put these all together. I shut down growth, I shut down the immune system, and I shut off conscious awareness." I go: "When was that system formed?" "Oh, a couple hundred thousand years ago." I say: "What was it responding to?" "The saber-toothed tiger?" I go: "So what was important?" "If you escape that tiger for five minutes or ten minutes, there's no more saber-toothed tiger, no more stress." So it was used for five to ten minutes. Shut it down [for] five to ten minutes; we'll come back later. In today's world—you know the whole thing—every day, every minute, we're in stress. The system was never designed for chronic stress. It shuts down the vitality, health, and maintenance of the body. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 21:01 The stresses of this world are responsible for over 90% of healthcare crises. This is recognized by the American Psychological Society: 95% of visits to doctors' offices [are] stress-related. I was a programmer. And I'm not proud now because, when I programmed, people used to believe in genetic determinism. I go: "No, no. I was wrong. Epigenetics, okay?" But we've been programmed to be victims. Dr. Jill 21:32 Yes. First of all, I think doctors are starting, at least in my realm of functional/integrative—we're talking epigenetics; we're using this. And I just want to share a personal example to bring home what you just shared. It's so important. Many of my listeners know that at 25, I had breast cancer, then Crohn's disease, and then autoimmunity. I'm the poster child. What I remember very clearly is that in my 30s, I got mold-related toxicity. My immune system was terribly trashed and overactive and I was under high stress. I remember one day walking along and realizing: "This stress that is in my body is actually killing me." I had the mentality [of] "beating cancer," "fighting cancer," "fighting this," "fighting that"—fighting, fighting, fighting—which is your saber-toothed tiger [description]. I was in fight or flight. Dr. Jill 22:16 The day I realized that was the day I realized I could also reprogram my immune system through my thoughts. That day I started thinking [up] a new paradigm, thinking about these little yellow minions being my immune system. They were helping escort mold toxicity out of my body without this fight because, [in] fight or flight, there's no healing. And now, today, I'm healed from that and from mold-related illness and all of this. But it's really that moment when I realized I could change my thought process, change the function of my immune system, recover from Crohn's, cancer, and toxic mold, and no longer fight. Dr. Jill 22:53 And the most important message, as you brought home, is that when I'm sitting with a patient, if they're in fear, if they are in fight or flight, and if they are feeling unsafe in their body, there is no amount of pills, supplements, IVs, nutrition, or even good advice that I can give them… Unless they go to that place of unsafeness, that place of fear, that place where they're still somatically running from the tiger. We have to change that, and it starts with this. Dr. Jill 23:22 So I love, love, love that you framed this. And I just want to give you credit because you've been doing this work for decades before anyone else was talking about it. And now we're seeing it. And finally, doctors in my field are starting to acknowledge and talk about it. But even in my field, functional medicine is a lot about supplements, diet, and lifestyle. That's all great. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 23:40 Well, that's environment! Dr. Jill 23:41 Right? Right. Actually, that's the thing I was going to mention too. My specialty is environmental toxicity, so I know the petri dish of how it affects our bodies. But I do believe, as you're saying, that this reprogramming of our mind… Do you have any stories or examples, maybe from your book, of a patient, client, or somebody who has read your book who really took this and changed from there? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 24:03 I've got hundreds and hundreds of letters from people who've written. There were two things about this. Let me express it even in my personal life. I understood this from a scientific point of view. Man, it was in my laboratory, my research. It was repeatable; I could do this all the time. It took 23 years before science caught up with that observation. I [inaudible] a lot of other things in between to conform. And the reality is that our own understanding about our frailty—it's an understanding. And then I give an understanding of, "No, we're very powerful." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 24:42 I was so happy to go and find an audience of doctors and people: "Let me explain how to create the most wonderful life. Here's the science!" And then they'd come to my lecture and they'd look at me and go: "Lipton, your life doesn't look that good for a guy who says you know this." Oh my God, I was caught. You know what it was? Talking the talk, not walking the talk. I knew the science. It was in my head. Did I make it part of my life? No! I say: "So what was the point? I don't care how smart you are; if you don't make a part of your life, it's irrelevant." Totally! Then all of a sudden, when I caught myself going, "Oh, do as I say, not as I do," it's like, "I can't do that!" So I had to say: "Stop lecturing. Start living your life with the principles you are telling other people. Live this now." How long did it take me to change my life? Oh, within a month, my life was completely on a whole different spectrum. And it was like, "Now, of course, I start talking about it again," because it was real. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 25:47 Let me just give a simple understanding, a scientific understanding, and that is this: The mind is not one thing. "Oh, the mind." I go: "No, not the mind. There are two minds. And they're interdependent, but they have different functions." The conscious mind, the latest evolution: The prefrontal cortex, right behind your forehead, [is] the seat of the conscious mind. What's that? The conscious mind is your source, your personal identity, your spiritual place. What else is it? It's creative! That's what makes humans different than all the other animals. We can take ideas, boom, build them, and create in the conscious mind. What about the subconscious mind? Oh, the original one? Hard drive, programs, habits, stored behavior. Thinking? Uh-uh. Just behavior—program. Dr. Jill 26:38 The subconscious has no way to differentiate truth, right? It does whatever you tell it to do. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 26:44 No, well, the subconscious doesn't do what you tell it to do; it does what it tells it to do. The subconscious is the autopilot. I say, yes, the mind works, but you have to understand that when I'm in the conscious mind, that is the creative side. That's the side with wishes, desires, and aspirations. What do you want? Conscious mind. Subconscious mind: Program. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 27:09 I say, "So what's the issue with our life when it comes down to it?" The monkey wrench that blows the whole thing out is that when the conscious mind is thinking, it's not paying attention to the outer world. A thought is inside. When you're present, your conscious mind is looking at the world and engaging the world. Right now, in front of it, I'm engaging it. But if I'm thinking, my conscious mind is no longer looking out; it's looking in because a thought is on the inside. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 27:38 So I say, "Wait, what if I'm driving the car and I have a thought?" And I've got to tell you, in fact: Then you're not driving the car. "What do you mean? No accident or nothing." I say: "Driving is a program. You don't have to think about driving." In fact, most of the time, if you've been driving for a long time, you never think about the details of driving. It's an automatic behavioral program. It plays when you're not paying attention. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 28:02 I go: "Aha! When the conscious mind is thinking, it's not paying attention to the outer world. Why? It's inside." So I say: Walking, driving, talking, doing your job—hey, those are habits. You've been doing it all—whatever [it is]—for a long period of time. You don't have to re-learn it. It's automatic. Do you even have to think about walking? No, you didn't even have to say: "Oh, I'm going to walk from here to there. I'm going to get that." I say: "Walking is automatic. You don't think about it—program." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 28:37 So then comes the number and this is scientific: Ninety-five percent of the day is the average person's amount of thinking. Then what does that represent? Biologically, only five percent of the day are you creating your life with the conscious mind's wishes and desires. Ninety-five percent of the day your life is coming from programs that you downloaded mainly before age seven. And I go, "Where did I get the programs?" I go: "Before age seven, your brain is not primarily functioning at the level of consciousness, which in EEG terms is alpha, beta, and gamma. When you're under seven, you're operating primarily at theta, which is just below consciousness." Theta—imagination. Hey, the tea party: Pour nothing into the cup. Drink the nothing. "The best tea I ever had in my life!" That's imagination. That's theta. That's what kids do all the time. They can have imaginary friends. They play with them all the time. It's imagination. Theta is hypnosis. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 29:41 I go, "Why is that important?" How many rules does it take to be a member of a family? How many rules does it take to be a member of a community? Now we're talking thousands. I go, "Why is that important?" I said, "Well, teach an infant a thousand rules." I go: "They can't read a book. They can't sit in a classroom. They can't understand a video." I said: "How are they going to learn?" Nature took care of that. Nature gave the first seven years theta, which is hypnosis. You want to know the behavior? Watch your mother, watch your father, watch your community. Watch their behavior; download it. Now it's your behavior! Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 30:19 So the behavior that's in your subconscious mind didn't even come from you, did it? Nope, it came from other people. And did they answer your wishes and desires—what you'd like? Not necessarily. So then, are there programs in there that give you what your wishes and desires are? Not necessarily, no. In fact, I say, "So what about these programs?" Sixty percent of the things you downloaded as a kid—sixty percent of the subconscious programs [are] disempowering, self-sabotaging, and limiting beliefs. And you operate ninety-five percent of the day from them. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 30:53 Ah, but here's the monkey wrench you didn't catch! Why am I using my subconscious programs? Because my conscious mind's not paying attention; it's thinking. Well, then, do you see the programs when they come out? I go: "Nope! You're the only one who doesn't even see the program!" Why? Everybody else around you is responding to your program. You're not even paying attention [to] what the hell is coming out. Sixty percent of it [is] disempowering yourself. So the issue is this: We are not controlling our lives. Our program controls our lives. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 31:28 I say, "Oh, this is a new science." I go: "Scientifically, this is valid. This is understanding theta activity, downloading programs, conscious, subconscious, blah, blah, blah, blah." But the Jesuits knew about programming for 400 years. They would tell their followers, "Give me a child until it is seven, and I will show you the man." Oh my God, that's 100% right! The programming is before age seven, and 95% of the life is the program. They knew it. They created Catholic schools to help the programming go along. And that idea is never lost because if you can watch an infant today, which I've seen carrying an iPad, interacting with a program on a computer, that's far better programming than Jesuits could ever have thought of. Dr. Jill 32:17 Yes, it's clear, isn't it? That's a really good transition because one of the things I see as the biggest crisis in healthcare is environment, but it's environment that is no longer socially interactive or present. We're numbing ourselves out with machines, with iPads, and with phones. They are designed to create an addictive behavior, so they're tapping into some of those subconscious programs, right? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 32:40 And let me just add this to that: It's not just that behavior, but it's also creating disempowering behaviors. So these programs—as you were just going to say, and I'll let you have it back again—were not designed to help us; they were designed to control us. Dr. Jill 33:05 Yes. And sell and control. Yes, so we are pawns in this new world of technology that is neurodynamically designed to be addictive. If you haven't seen The Social Dilemma, that's a great place to start in your education on social media and the impact. I do want to talk about this. One of the things you just got done saying is that before seven, we're programmed. I totally understand and believe that. But the truth is, we have the power to change that programming. Tell us about that. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 33:36 Most everybody out there has changed that programming. I say, "You've already done it." I say: "What, the movie The Matrix, being a documentary, everybody's programmed?" Yes, of course, that's the foundational belief of the movie and the reality. And in the movie, they offered the red pill. And I say: "What was the red pill? You get out of the program!" Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 33:54 I go, "Almost everybody out here right now listening has done that." I say: "What was the consequence? How did it happen?" I'm going to tell you. Falling in love is a red pill. I go, "What do you mean?" Because when you first fall in love, you stop thinking. Biologically, you stay present; you stay in the conscious, creative mind. You've waited for this person your whole life. They're there. What, you want to start thinking and then ignore them? Are you kidding me? You stay up conscious. You stay mindful. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 34:23 I say, "So what happened?" I say: "Your life up to meeting that person: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You meet them [and] 24 hours later: 'Oh, man, life is beautiful. Life is so wonderful. Hey, the food's really good. That music is even better than I ever thought it was.'" And even the crappy job is not so crappy. I said: "What'd you do?" You made honeymoon. What's honeymoon? Heaven on earth. I said, "What was your heaven on earth?" Whatever you wished and desired. You and a partner coming together when you're both wishing and desiring, you're sharing the same wishes and desires, you manifest a honeymoon. Oops, I dropped something, but okay. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 35:01 Is the honeymoon already there? I go, "The honeymoon's always there." I said, "Then how come you don't have it?" Because when you start thinking, you then go back to subconscious control, the default. And the problem is, why do 50% of marriages end up in divorce? The answer is this: Marriage has started with the relationship of two conscious creative minds sharing together a belief in creating a honeymoon, and it ends when thinking enters into the people and they start playing their regular programs, which are 60% negative. The partner hears these programs. The one saying the thing doesn't hear it; the other one hears it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 35:43 I love the response. When somebody comes out in a relationship and the loving partner hears some kind of BS come out of their other partner, they look at them and go: "Who are you? Where did you come from?" What? It was never part of the behavior. And then, all of a sudden, it shows up. And the more thinking, the more that negativity shows up. There's a point where a partner will say: "That's enough. That's not why I signed up here. I signed up because we had a great honeymoon." After you started thinking, this thing went right down the tube. The point is, that's what reality is about. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 36:18 So the idea then becomes simple, which is the obvious thing: "What if I created all programs that represented my wishes and desires—if I had those programs?" I said: "Oh, you know what? Whether you're consciously creating those wishes and desires or your conscious mind is off in left field, your subconscious will be manifesting the wishes and desires. And guess what? A honeymoon is not a short period. A honeymoon is every day of your life for as long as you live." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 36:46 Does it work? Personally, I had some very bad programming when I was young because my mother and father had a dysfunctional relationship. I downloaded my father's dysfunctional behavior. I played it when I couldn't see it. The result is that I couldn't get relationships off the ground. Then I understood the nature of the programming. Then I understand the nature of reprogramming. Around 50, I met my partner, Margaret. We just celebrated 28 years! And I'm not selling just a relationship; I'm talking honeymoon for 28 years. To wake up every day in my life and go: "Oh my God, I'm still here. Oh my God, I have another day to smell the roses, to have a piece of cake, to enjoy the love, watch the environment, and love my life." I celebrate life. Jill celebrates life. What's the result? Where's the illness? What illness? Dr. Jill 37:45 Yes! I love that. There are some points that I think are so crucial that you just made, number one, being present with our partners, watching them in real time and observing them. So often we create a program of them, a template, and then we don't expect them to change. Or, we expect them to behave the same. And when we're in real time, present with another person—whether it's a friend, family member, business associate, or lover—we can respond in real time. And that's part of that co-creation that you're talking about. It's crucial. Dr. Jill 38:15 The other thing is that with illness, I find one thing that was—I'm sure this is related to the program, [and] I'd love your comments—I never identified with the cancer. I never became the cancer. I never made that part of who I was. Even now, I'm like, "Oh yes, 20 years ago, I had cancer." And of course, it's real, but it's almost foreign because it was never part of me. And I really believe that's a huge part of why I overcame a very, very aggressive cancer at the age of 25—because it never was my identity. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 38:44 Yes, let's just talk about this. The first thing is that I'm going to give a fact of science [to] which [a person might say], "He really said that?" And I'm going to say, yes, I'm going to say this. There's not one gene that causes cancer. There's not a gene [where], "You have this gene, you get cancer." The one scary one for women, of course, [is] the breast cancer gene. I go, "So what?" I go: "Women who carry the breast cancer gene don't necessarily have to have cancer. As a matter of fact, nearly half of them don't get cancer. But they have the gene." So then I say, "Then where did the cancer come from?"—because those who have the cancer with the gene and those who are healthy with the gene have the same gene. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 39:20 What's the difference? The answer is this: Cancer is correlated with a gene, not caused by a gene. Cancer is caused by disharmony in the system. Disharmony is the source of disease. Harmony is the source of health. Disharmony means your programming wasn't really good, and you're responding to things in a negative way that is going to cause a breakdown of the system. That's where the stress comes into it. So the concept is this: The image—even if once you tell a woman, "Yes, you have the breast cancer gene," what the hell image do you think is going to be in her head? The answer is: Cancer. I go: "Yes, but isn't the function of the mind to take the image of the head and turn it into reality?" I go, "Absolutely! What's the consequence?" Ninety percent of cancer has no genetic linkage at all. Dr. Jill 40:14 Yes. That was the biggest question I got as a 25-year-old. Every single person, to a T: "Oh, did you have genes?" No, I didn't have genes. I had a dysfunctional system when I was in my 20s. That goes into a whole other lecture that I could give, but I was not living consciously. And there were some things, stress-wise, that were contributing. And it was the environmental toxic load. So all of these things are the petri dish. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 40:38 And more than that, there must have been the two programs. Eighty to ninety percent of all people will not test positive for two beliefs. Number one, and I think the most important, is the belief, "I love myself." Eighty percent of people will not test positive for that belief. Number two, and this is the one where the healthcare crisis comes from: "I am safe." When you have a picture of fear, then the chemistry of fear is to manifest the fear. When they say "This is it" and [show you] a picture of the tumor and everything, then you make the chemistry of the tumor. Then the idea is that we have to own quantum physics. Consciousness is the source of our life experiences. We have to understand the nature of epigenetics. Consciousness is the source of what controls our genes. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 41:07 The third thing that I think is part of the Renaissance that we really must emphasize at some point is Newtonian physics, which separates physical from non-physical, matter versus energy. It's an illusion. It's not real. But it programs us in a very bad way because the program says: "Whatever is made out of matter can only be affected by matter. Whatever is made out of energy can only be affected by energy." And I say, "So what's the consequence?" I say: "The body is matter. And what do you think the whole foundation of the pharmaceutical company is? The body is matter and we make the matter to fix the matter." Dr. Jill 42:16 Yes. What's the matter with that? [laughs] Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 42:18 Three hundred thousand people die in the US every year from prescription drugs, that's what's the matter with it, when less than 50,000—I think 30,000—people die from illegal drugs. We have a war on illegal drugs, and 300,000 people dying from pharmaceutical drugs is called the cost of doing medicine. I go: "That's damn expensive! We don't need that." Simple law of science: If a drug works, it only works because you already had a receptor for that drug on you. Do you think nature put receptors on cells, waiting for the pharmaceutical company to make a drug? No, come on, man! If you have a receptor for a drug, it's because you have a receptor for a drug that you make. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 43:01 I go, "I can make any drug." Of course, because any drug works because you have a receptor to connect it. If you have a receptor, then you obviously have a signal that will bind to that receptor. Then you say, "Well, it's not working." And that's where everything gets screwed up because that system isn't working and then you go right away: "Oh, the body is defective. The genes aren't working right. There's an interference with the physical." I go, "Yes, there was an interference because it didn't start down here; it started up here." And once you start to understand this, yes, treat the body if there's an immediate need to treat the body, but the process of treating the patient is treating this part. Knowledge is power. They do not have the knowledge of who they are. They're programmed [to think]: "I'm a victim of my genes and I have no power." I go, "Well, there's your problem." Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 43:54 And the issue about it is that you guys are in the front of the evolution that says: Okay, I can treat the patient, but I've really got to treat the consciousness of the patient. Why? Because, as quantum physics says, consciousness is the source of this creativity, and as epigenetics says, consciousness is the source of this expression. You cannot leave that out. Dr. Jill 44:18 You just talked about two beliefs that I think are critical and it's a great place to kind of wrap up. The first one is: Do we love ourselves? Do we really, really, truly love and accept ourselves? I have written a book and done a movie on that message. The heart of healing is: How do we show self-compassion and love? Because that is the only way that our cells will respond in health. Dr. Jill 44:41 The second thing was so crucial too, and that is the fear and the unsafety. This is where a physician in the office can make all the difference, because if they add to that fear message, guess what? That's just adding to that patient's unhealth. So one thing we are obligated to do as physicians is create a safe environment and teach that patient how to start to feel safe in their body. With those two beliefs, maybe in the last couple of minutes here, could you maybe give us some practical advice for somebody who's like: "How do I start doing that, Bruce? How do I feel safe in my body? And how do I love myself?" Because that, I couldn't agree more with you, is really the core message here. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 45:19 I'll tell you, let's get right to the root of why people do not love themselves. The answer is: Because parents act like coaches on a sports team. I go, "What does that mean?" A player isn't doing well. What does the coach say? "Oh, do better." No! The coach says: "That's not good enough. Who do you think you are? You don't deserve to be on this team." Well, a player is older than seven. They're in consciousness. They understand that the coach is saying, "You better do better!" Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 45:47 Now let's say the parent is the coach and the kid is under seven. There's no consciousness operating. What's operating? Hypnosis, programming. So when the father says, "That's not good enough, you don't deserve this, you're not lovable, you don't belong," blah, blah, blah—acting like the coach who says, "This is going to make them do better"—if the kid is under seven, you just programmed them to self-sabotage because the subconscious is going to create 95% of their life. And if I get a program "I do not deserve," when I'm thinking 95% of the day, what the hell program is running? "I do not deserve." So I could say something so stupid in my corporate structure or something, and somebody says, "That guy doesn't deserve to be here." And then, all of a sudden, I'm kicked out of the structure. Why? Because I myself made behavior to conform to "not good enough" and to not love myself. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 46:41 This is why that one's so important—because if you can't love yourself, I'm going to be honest, you can't accept love from somebody else. I go, "Why?" Because they say they love you, but in your mind, you're going: "Well, they don't know me, man. I know I'm not lovable." And you'll push them away. And then you'll find yourself with nobody around. And guess what you'll say? "You see?! I'm not lovable!" [inaudible] You just did that. And when it comes to "Do I have any power?" the answer is: No, it has been systematically deprived of them. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 46:59 I've got a minute; I've got to say this because this is really cool. There's a power struggle in the world. It's always been this way. There are three levels of power. Number one, caveman. Who's the biggest badass with the biggest club? Whatever they say, do it. They've got the power. Evolution came along. There are people then who control the resources that you need. And all of a sudden they say, "If you want those resources, you've got to give me something for this." And you know what? The ones who had the resources paid the caveman to hit you over the head if you didn't pay for the resources. Dr. Jill 47:53 A personal hitman. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 47:55 That's the king who owns the resources with an army of cavemen. Then I say, "But the last of the power struggles came down to 'knowledge is power.'" And it was recognized that, yes, that is the supreme power of everything. Knowledge is power. The first thing the church of Rome did was acknowledge: "We are the source of infallible knowledge. We are the source of truth. We say it; it's true." Well, you say, "I don't care." The point about it was that people gave up their power to the belief. And I say it here very quickly: There's a code behind the power brokers. I call it the powermongers' credo. I say, "What is it?" Are you ready? Give them the fear for free and then sell them the antidote. Dr. Jill (pre-recording) 48:46 Hey, everybody. I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected: Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science, and Faith, is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming a life-threatening illness and the tools, tips, tricks, hope, and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein-Barr, and mold- and biotoxin-related illnesses. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by ReadUnexpected.com. There, you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine and finding resilience. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 50:59 "What do you want me to do? Put a mask on? Sure. I'll mask on. I can't visit my mom, who's dying in a nursing home?" "No, you have to give that up because you can't do that." "Really?" Dr. Jill 51:09 Yes. If you're controlled, then fear created the biology of illness. It really, really is a great analogy. Bruce, this has been so fun to dive deep. I love talking to you. I love your enthusiasm. I love your wisdom. And I love most of all that you were so far ahead of the curve because people are kind of coming along to this belief. But the truth is, you were one of the very first ones writing and talking about this. And I'm just grateful that way back in the day, in the lab, you saw this and started writing about it. Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D. 51:44 I can't be any happier than I am for myself! I have a different life! I have a different life than before that discovery. Dr. Jill 51:53 Yes. And it transforms us all, too. I have many stories, the same thing, of me continuing to transform because of this knowledge. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for spending your time with us today!](https://www.jillcarnahan.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Bruce-Lipton-Biology-of-Belief-Can-Your-Mind-Spontaneously-Transform-Your-Health_-WEB-1.jpg)
Share: